Relays for electric windows

[GTVeloce]

One of my 'upgrades' for the GTV is the addition of relays on the electric windows to make them operate faster. I have had a couple of goes at this but with no success. The first just blew the fuse immediately (oops) and the second attempt just did nothing at all (windows wouldn't go up or down).

Has anyone done this successfully already? What method of wiring the relays did you use? Four or five pin relays? I am working on the assumption of using two relays each side (one for down and one for up).

Thanks

[Cool Jesus]

You could get away with one relay for the lot, however for peace of mind one for each side won't hurt. I've attached a diagram for the relay set up. If you get a four post relay make sure it's NC (normally closed) and rated for at least 30 Amps. If your not connecting to a fused circuit (of greater than 30A) at the battery end, make sure the 30 Amp fuse pictured near pole 30 is at that end (pole 87) no further than say 200mm from the battery terminal.

If your using a five post relay, makes no difference as to whether its NC or NO (normally open), just make sure its wired per diagram, (ie 12V +ve from battery doesn't make a circuit when relay is at rest with pole 30).  Usually 12V power goes to pole 30, however this set up leaves the unused pole inert, so there's no risk of something touching it and creating a dangerous short.

I think your main problem is the type of switch you are using, "the one relay for up and one for down" doesn't sound right to me.

You need a rocker switch or similar for each window, with a centre off. The window motor normally has its two wires attached to the rocker switch. The switch has a 12V +ve battery power, the 2 wires for the motor and a ground. What the switch does is simple reverse polarity to the motor when it's rocked from centre to one side or the other. In other words +ve and ground are reversed on the motor wires.

Let me know if this makes no sense and I'll try to elaborate, typing away in a hurry as I'm about to head off.

Lastly, if you're still blowing fuses with this set up, you may have a bad switch or a bad motor

[Alan Hopla]

I have a setup which uses two relays per side.
These are located in each door.
I'll have to rip a door trim off to confirm the relay types and circuit setup.
However I'm fairly sure that the existing window switches are used to switch the relays, this alleviates any resistance/voltage drop in the window switch, which is unlike Cool Jesus configuration where the motor current is still passing through the window switch.

Alan.

[rowan_bris]

Alan

Did you find this effective in making the windows go up and down without outside assistance?

tanks
Rowan

[Alan Hopla]

A lot of the electrical issues in these cars, (including the windows) can be traced to the load (window motor) not being supplied the full 12V.
This can be caused by power leads that aren't big enough to carry the load, bad (high resistance) joints in the leads, both joins and connectors, high resistance in the fuse box, high resistance in the switches.
The aim in these conversion works should be to get the maximum voltage that you can at the load.

I had a look at the setup in my car and it uses two 5 pin relays each side.
These relays must be of the type shown in Cool Jesus diagram, having a pin 87 and pin 87a, ( you can't use the type that has two pin 87's or a pin 87 and 87b).

In the standard wiring configuration (I'm pretty sure) the window motor has a Yellow lead and a Yellow&Black lead. (Passenger side)
Now I'm not sure which way around this works.
When you select up on the window switch lets say you get 12V on the Yellow and Ground on the Yellow&Black.
When you select down on the window switch lets say you get 12V on the Yellow &Black and Ground on the Yellow.
These might be the other way around but I hope you get the idea.
This means that the motor can drive in both directions.

Taking note of what you do here.
Disconnect the Yellow wire from the motor, and attach it to pin 85 of one of the relays, on this relay also connect pin 30 to the motor terminal you took the Yellow wire off.
Do the same for the Yellow&Black wire to the other relay, again attach it to pin 85, and connect pin 30 back to the motor.
This uses the existing wiring to control the relays.
Pin 86 of both relays are connected to ground.
When you select up one relay will be energised, when you select down the other relay will be energised. (But the motor won't do anything yet).

Pin 87a of both relays is connected to ground, with a decent lead as this will carry the motor current.
This means that in the normal state both leads to the motor are connected to ground.

Pin 87 of both relays is connected to +12V, this should be switched by the ignition so the Windows only work with ignition on, should also be fused to protect against shorts etc.
It is important that this is a decent lead to carry the motor current and delivers  12V when the window is operating.

Now when you select up on the switch, one of the relays will energise, switching 12V to one terminal on the motor, the other terminal already has ground supplied by the other relay in its normal state. Window should go up.
When you select down the other relay will energise. Window should go down.

I haven't had any issues with this arrangement, and if your motors and window guides are OK they should work without manual assistance.

Alan.

[GTVeloce]

Thanks guys!

I think the fuse blowing was because of a dead short. Certainly the window works fine (just slow) without my attempts to improve it so I suspect the wiring, motor and switch are fine.

I agree Alan about the load not being delivered properly. I certainly got a great improvement in my headlights just by fixing that issue (with relays, bigger cabling and shorter, bigger earths).

My first attempt (which just blew the fuse) was similar to your method Alan barring a couple of minor changes. See this page for the diagram I tried;
http://www.the12volt.com/installbay/forum_posts.asp?TID=111180&KW=motor+relay
Hopefully this will fix the problem!

This is a second time you have been a great help Alan - I might have to come and bestow some thanks!

[Cool Jesus]

GTV, the diagram at 12volt is similar to the first schematic I uploaded and not what Alan described. I have to agree with Alan that its best to avoid sending the full 12V battery power through the switch as it will eventually cause issues.

I've added schematics of alan's wiring which is a better and more long term solution for trouble free operations. Don't forget to appropriately fuse the set up near the battery. The Ign/Acc power supply should already be fused (just make sure it is, otherwise best to insert one). The second schematic is how the actuallt terminals would be jumped between the relays to reduce wiring.

It never cease to amaze me how versatile relays can be...
Good luck, let su know how it goes?

[Alan Hopla]

Glad that I have been of some help.

A difference in the diagram from th12volt link is that the 'switching' singal provides an earth to the relay switch coil, so the other side of this coil is tied to 12v.

In my description the 'switching' signal I am using is a 12v feed from the window switch, hence the other side of the relay coil is tied to earth.

In the Alfa set up you should be able to use either, as one of the leads from the window switch is supplied with 12v and the other is supplied with earth.
So whether you connect the other side of the relay coil to 12v or earth, only one of the relays will energise when you operate the switch. It's just that it would be one or the other, and you need to make sure that the one that is providing 12v to the motor is providing it to the right side of the motor to drive it the right way (up or down).

I prefer to earth the relay coil and use a switched 12v signal.

Alan

[mfroes]

anyone successfully installed this fix ?
where exactlly should it be located?
i should totally disconnect the motor from the original circuit and connect to the relays ?

[rowan_bris]

I have just had relays put in the doors of my GTV6 together with significantly larger wiring and the results are outstanding.  The windows work as they always should have!  I have two spare new window motors for anyone who may need them too.  I bought thinking I would just replace my original ones, but didn't need them.