Alfa Romeo 4 C

[Sheldon McIntosh]

it appeared as if you were stating a fact (blatantly obvious) rather than an opinion so I am not about to give up that easily.
dont take me wrong, Elise is a great car but there is nothing that 4c owes to it.

The concept !
-     what concept,  four wheels and an engine, i don't think lotus invented it or brought it to market first

This is not a great start to your discussion.  Leaving aside the argument that the Elise was a game-changer when it came out in 1996, and has been at the head of the field since then, and arguably started the 'track-day' trend in the UK which lead to cars like the KTM X-Bow and the Radical; leaving aside that argument, it is clear that the concept of the 4C is that of a low-cost, low-weight, two-seater, mid-engined sportscar.  Your willful ignorance of this fact just makes you look like a petulant and pre-pubescent schoolboy.

the engine location
-     engine behind the driver is not a lotus invention and neither is lotus the only car on the market with the engine behind the driver, you could accuse Elise of being a copy of Toyota MR2 that was in production for 12 years when Lotus Elise came out, which would also be ridiculous simplification. How about Fiat and Lancia with small cars and engine behind the driver ... Didn't Alfa ever build a car with the engine behind the driver ? Maybe one or two ...

Good points about the Toyota, Fiat, and Lancia.  But as you say, these were 'small cars and engine behind the driver'.  You then go on to suggest that Alfa have built a car (or two) with the engine behind the driver.  Yes, of course they have, but these were clearly in a far different market to the Toyota, Fiat, Lancia, and indeed to the Elise and the 4C, but we'll talk more about that later on...

the target market (price)
-     it is not in the same price range, people in this forum who specialise in automotive market segmentation are suggesting that it should be targeting the same audience, but by the early price indications is that it is not

It is, Fiat Chrysler are saying it will retail for around $80,000.
http://canberratimes.drive.com.au/motor-news/alfas-cutprice-supercar-revealed-20130306-2fkcu.html
http://www.carshowroom.com.au/newcars/news/3660/Alfa_Romeo_4C_For_Australia_2014__Starting_Below__80_000_

materials of construction
-     lotus Elise made a big thing of using bespoke aluminium extrusions, 4c uses carbon fibre tub chassis, they could not be further apart in that respect.

A disingenuous argument at best.  The cars are almost 20 years apart.  The Lotus was pretty advanced for it's time, and made by a relatively small manufacturer.  The Alfa is made by one of the biggest car manufacturers in the world, using the technology of now.

power to weight
-      it never occurred to alfa before to lower a car weight to achieve better power to weight ratio, did it ... Chapman did take this approach to extremes but that still does not mean the 4c owes anything to Elise in that respect

Yes, fair point, and understandable coming from a GTA owner.  But when was the last time that Alfa 'added lightness'?

visual cues
-    Elise was never a particularly attractive car nor an originally looking one,  you'd have to squint a great deal to make them look similar, but at that point anything you look at would look similar.

You're entitled to your opinion of course.  The only question I would have on this statement is why you say the Elise didn't look original?  Care to elaborate on that?

Other than that, there are two more points I would like to make.  The first is that I agree with previous commenters, in that the 4C is clearly influenced by the Lotus.  This is not a bad thing in my opinion, in fact I think they would have been morons not to do so, and they should have done something similar 10 years ago. 

The second point I would like to make is that putting a picture of a 33 Stradale in this thread is just taking the piss having a lend.  As I said above, the 4C is clearly being marketed as a 'budget' sportscar, the 33 was far, far away from that.  Attached some pics of cars that you could buy at the same time as the 33 Stradale, for far, far less money.

[Evan Bottcher]

The C in 4C stands for Chapman right?  I for one welcome our new Lotus overlords.  Shame it has to have oversized for-show wheels, and a flappy-paddle gearbox. Riddle me this: why are all the supercar manufacturers (not referring to the 4C of course) favoring the flappy paddle?

[colcol]

From the AGE Drive liftout 9-3-2013 Fast Lane by Richard Blackburn, on the Alfa 4C,
"Every now and then a car company gets it wrong on the styling front. Ford did it twice in quick succession with the Taurus and the home grown AU Falcon in the 90's and Bentley unveiled a concept SUV with a face only a mother could love at last years Geneva motor show. This year the head scratcher at Geneva came from a most unlikely source. While the new Alfa 4C looks pretty sexy from most angles, from the front end it looks like something penned by Pixar rather than Pininfarina. We know the Italian company has jumped in bed with the Yanks at Chrysler, but did they have to make the 4C's face look like something Lightning Mc Queen might pick up in a Texas bar?", Colin.

[aggie57]

From the AGE Drive liftout 9-3-2013 Fast Lane by Richard Blackburn, on the Alfa 4C,
"Every now and then a car company gets it wrong on the styling front. Ford did it twice in quick succession with the Taurus and the home grown AU Falcon in the 90's and Bentley unveiled a concept SUV with a face only a mother could love at last years Geneva motor show. This year the head scratcher at Geneva came from a most unlikely source. While the new Alfa 4C looks pretty sexy from most angles, from the front end it looks like something penned by Pixar rather than Pininfarina. We know the Italian company has jumped in bed with the Yanks at Chrysler, but did they have to make the 4C's face look like something Lightning Mc Queen might pick up in a Texas bar?", Colin.

Sadly they're right but it's not alone. Check out the LaFerrari on the front of Drive 😊

[Brad M]

:
Leaving aside the argument that the Elise was a game-changer when it came out in 1996, and has been at the head of the field since then, and arguably started the 'track-day' trend in the UK which lead to cars like the KTM X-Bow and the Radical; leaving aside that argument, it is clear that the concept of the 4C is that of a low-cost, low-weight, two-seater, mid-engined sportscar.
:
it will retail for around $80,000.
:

Amen to that and if it handles as good as it looks ... imagine the 4C trophy we'll be running in a few years.

:
they should have done something similar 10 years ago. 
:

  This bit makes me cranky, if they a lot of us would have one now, even Branko I suspect.

Riddle me this: why are all the supercar manufacturers (not referring to the 4C of course) favoring the flappy paddle?

They make ordinary drivers not so ordinary.

[branko.gt]

Sheldon,
as a big fan of your prose, at first i was excited to see that you provided a long contribution but that was quickly displaced by a disappointment at a very uncharacteristically weak response with scanty arguments.

I was hoping for more than verbosely put " it's the vibe, its a Mabo" .....

Is it you or is it the cause you have taken to promote here that is a problem ... ?

Do not take me wrong, i am not trying to take anything away from Lotus and Elise but there is one thing that was truly innovative with that car. It was the ingenious idea of using extruded aluminium profiles. Everything else is a prior art, all the details and the concept.

By all accounts they made a damn good car (not that i know as i have never driven one) but other than the extruded aluminium profiles there is nothing there that Alfa did not entertain before, in detail or in concept.

Alfa was developing a 4 banger behind the driver concept in 1966. Then, half way through, it was time for a coffee and lunch. When they came back they forgot what they were working on and got onto another project.
Some 40 years later they remembered it and decided to have another go. I for one and grateful that  they did not take a coffee break this time around and did make it into production.

BTW, I thought it may have been obvious, but since it, obviously, was not obvious here is the explanation.  Tipo 33 picture was there for the less "myopic" to see that visual cues on 4c have actual in house reference which fit better then somewhat forced comparison with Lotus Elise.

[Brad M]

BTW, I thought it may have been obvious, but since it, obviously, was not obvious here is the explanation.  Tipo 33 picture was there for the less "myopic" to see that visual cues on 4c have actual in house reference which fit better then somewhat forced comparison with Lotus Elise.

Could you clarify what you mean for us "myopic". I fail to see these stronger visual cues between the 4C and the 33, except they are both a shade of Red.

I see the front (nose and front wheel) of the 4C's proportions are do align with the 33, more so than Lotus.
But, for your assertion the rear is all wrong, as is the vent behind the door and where is the fake front vent (even holden put one on the new taxi)?

Just my opinion and not endorsed by the car critics association of anywhere.

i just hope you are not going to start seeing extraterrestrials and ghosts ...   

BTW: That's exactly what an extraterrestrial or ghost would say.

[Craig_m67]

Your willful ignorance of this fact just makes you look like a petulant and pre-pubescent schoolboy.

WTF ?

[Evan Bottcher]

It's just foreplay for those two. Wait till they get properly hotted up.

[massiveluvbuddy67]

If they could JUST make the 4C look like a 33 Stradale, or, like Joe's beautiful V8 at PI yesterday, I would have one in a flash.

The 4C nose brings tears to my eyes.

IT IS NOT THAT HARD TO DESIGN SOMETHING BEAUTIFUL...look at the noses of the above mentioned cars.

I would like to line up the 4C design team and slap them all very hard with a wet fish, then, throw my shoes at them!

End of rant...oh well, it may look better in the flesh. (The Lagonda does).

[Evan Bottcher]

I don't mind the nose.  I hope the little tacked on vents go away (they're only on the white show car as far as I can tell).  I really don't like the lights.

I saw a commenter on jalopnik referred to 'Trypophobia'.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trypophobia

[massiveluvbuddy67]

Yes, it is the lights....dear me

[Beatle]

If they could JUST make the 4C look like a 33 Stradale, or, like Joe's beautiful V8 at PI yesterday, I would have one in a flash.

The 4C nose brings tears to my eyes.

IT IS NOT THAT HARD TO DESIGN SOMETHING BEAUTIFUL...look at the noses of the above mentioned cars.

I would like to line up the 4C design team and slap them all very hard with a wet fish, then, throw my shoes at them!

End of rant...oh well, it may look better in the flesh. (The Lagonda does).

Phil, I simply must take you to task on this    For a start, it obviously IS difficult to design something beautiful, and moreso to design something which is functional and beautiful.  Then designers need to bring fresh design to the table or be accused of plaigarism.
Plenty of people did not, and probably fewer do not, find the Muira and Maser necessarily 'beautiful', particularly from the front (granted not many could find the 250GTO anything but beautiful.  Surely one of the rare things with both feminine beauty and masculinity in such harmony).  I still find the Muira's eyelashes a bit of an enigma, but what would it be without them?
I'm sure cars such as the Duetto and even the 105 coupes were greeted with varying degrees of acceptance when new.  It took me a lot of years staring at the 164 before I could decide if it was, or almost was...   
Not that I believe it relevent to the 4C, but these days there are a host of safety and economy issues when designing a car, so it's little wonder we end up with convergence of design.
Personally, I don't find the 4C front end too bad, for a modern design, but like you I hanker for the feminine-based form from the 50s and 60s. 
I also believe a lower proportion of us can actually distinguish real beauty.  Ask a group these days to list beautiful cars and you'll end up with GTHOs and WRXs on the list.  Those cars have their positives, but beauty is not among them.
Maybe we can blame the androgynous 90s.................
I believe any design needs time, and needs to be revisited many times, before it can truly be considered beautiful.

[Beatle]

Sheldon asserts:  "it is clear that the concept of the 4C is that of a low-cost, low-weight, two-seater, mid-engined sportscar."
I've heard pricing upwards of $100K !!!  Surely that's not considered to be low cost?  Lotus is a smaller specialist company so I could see how it would cost them more to build such cars, but I would think someone could do similar, with greater volume, for closer to $60K?   Is it really more expensive to assemble a mid-engined 4cyl car? 

[Evan Bottcher]

I've heard pricing upwards of $100K !!!  Surely that's not considered to be low cost?

It's been widely reported that Fiat Chrysler have a target price under $80k.  Seems reasonable to me, given the 916 GTV and 156 GTA were around a similar price in their day (I think the GTV was RRP $69k?).