3.0 build - starting from scratch

[TimD]

I have been meaning to say thanks for the invite you sent Marty, I was unable to attend unfortunately.

I went with the mechanical de tensioner. They are readily available from EB Spares. Shipping from the UK is very reasonable and fast.

To get the donuts free undo the center support, undo the rear cross member bolts and the watts linkage. Then jack the de dion. This will push the clutch down and it will separate from the donut.

http://www.hiperformancestore.com/guiboDSclutch.htm

If you have not done it recently, I would change the gearbox mounts and the diff mount at the same time. Swapping those mount eliminated any hint of vibration in my driveline.

I would defiantly double check the valve clearances. Mine sounded like an old truck when those blokes set them up.

Torquing up the cam pulley is a bit of a trick as well without the Alfa specific tool. I used the old timing belt held in a vice to hold the cam pulley stationary.

Good progress.

[scott.venables]

I bought a tensioner rebuilt kit from Turin Imports in Adelaide.  It was a few years ago but they might still have them. 

Attached is a picture of the flywheel I lightened for my car.  It's very manageable and well behaved so long as you're not indecisive with the throttle in which case it can get into the 'kangaroo hops'. It is 1.90kg lighter than standard.  I have another that is further lightened waiting to be fitted.

Scott

[martym00se72]

Thanks Tim - got that sorted over the weekend. Got some questions about trans mounts - mine are in good nick, but questions about spacers etc. I took photos so will post with the question when I have downloaded them from the camera.

Scott - man have I got some questions for you!!    I am trying to wade through the massively copious BS on various forums on flywheel balancing.  Firstly, my intention is to use the front pulley and flywheel from my 2.5 on my 164 3.0. I have read opinion of some that that is bad. I have read some that have done it without issue (but also no real science behind it - they just did it and hoped by the sounds). I would like to lighten the flywheel as well - I am rarely indecisive on the throttle but don't want the engine to self destruct either. I "think" that the 3.0 and the 2.5 have difference counterbalance amounts. So if I took the 3.0 flywheel (auto) and pulley as a pair and the 2.5 pulley and flywheel as a pair and asked a balance shop to balance up the lightened 2.5 with the same counter balance amount as the stock 3.0 set, would that work?

Still looking for a workshop in Adelaide to do it yet too...

[martym00se72]

Ok, so question about rear trans mounts. As I see it, I have mounts that belong on a 75 with the extra 1.5 mm plate tacked to the bottom. On the right of the photo, there is a steel block that I think is a spacer used by the PO to offset that - except it is bigger than the 1.5 mm. I also noticed that on the top of the trans tunnel, directly above the rear guibo there are marks where the guibo looks to have rubbed against the tunnel. Now I have noted that when I accelerated hard there was a rubbing noise from the rear - I actually thought it was the left rear rubbing but could never see marks in the wheel well or on the rubber. So this looks like what was causing that noise - but what to do with this. The spacer block is loose like a washer and I guess was put in by a PO to try and sort that. I also recall from a Greg Gordon article that there is a adjustable rubber stop above the trans - is it simply a matter of lowering that so that the trans can move as far? Front guibo is shot but middle and rear are in good nick...

[TimD]

That spacer is OEM. It is not a bodge job, my 75 had them as well.

If you have trans mounts with the plates on the bottom, and no extra spacing on top of the block, then your driveline will be out of alignment, specifically the front of the trans will be too high, possibly contributing to the rubbing in the tunnel. So, I would get a new set and cut the plate off or add a 1.5mm piece of steel to the block spacer. Replacing them is a good idea, because if they are sagging even slightly, they are ready to be replaced.

[scott.venables]

Hi Marty.  Yes, there has been a lot written about this on the net. The 2.5 and 3.0 do have a different balance factor due to the longer stroke in the 3.0.  How bad would it be to chop and change? I don't know, plenty of people have done it without problems but it can't be right.  I doubt it would 'self destruct' but over time the main bearings would probably wear faster.

Your idea of taking the two pulleys and two flywheels to the balancer should work.  They could mount each pair of pulleys/flywheels back to back and with the counterweights 180 degrees apart and then balance the new to the old. There's some high accuracy work in machining the jigs so the counterweights are 180 degrees apart.


This is the jig I use to balance my lightened flywheels:

http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/milano-75-1985-1993/46463-flywheel-balancing-jig.html

Dad made the jig initially for the 2.5 but thought tapping two holes in either end of the main strap might come in handy.  I'm doing a 3.0 flywheel at the moment and it happens that adding a pair of M8 bolts in the tapped holes brings the jig to the 3.0 counter balance.  It took me several hours to find correct weight for the bolts but I got it eventually.

Hope this helps,
Scott

[aggie57]

Marty - your approach re balancing the 2.5 flywheel for use on the 3.0 engine is correct.  That's exactly what I did 17 years ago (man was it that long ago...) when I did my conversion. Nobody else had done one in Australia up till then so I consulted Vin Sharp who suggested it and did the work for me.

The engine did several years of road and track work afterwards in two chassis and always ran sweetly.

[martym00se72]

Thanks Alister, good to know. Does it matter that the 164 was an auto with an auto flywheel?

[scott.venables]

Not as long as the counterweight is on the auto flywheel

[aggie57]

Thanks Alister, good to know. Does it matter that the 164 was an auto with an auto flywheel?

No - doesn't matter.  The donor engine I had was also from an auto 164.  As Scott says its the overall balance you need to match; you're simply replacing one component of the overall rotating mass assembly that also includes the crank, rods, and pistons.

[martym00se72]

OK, time for an update...

Had a chat with a local shop - Advanced Engine Reconditioners in Salisbury. Andy seems to know his stuff and looks to have done a pretty decent job and cost me less than they quoted but that is probably because Steve (Four90s) loaned me a crankshaft so he didn't have to make up a jig - Thanks Steve, owe you a beer

Not sure how much he took off - anyone know the weight of a standard 2.5 flywheel?

I have also learned the joys of rebuilding the tensioner (rather than go mechanical), replacing the rear engine mount, putting the heads back on and getting the timing belt on which surprised me at how easily it went on and stayed in place. I guess it helps when the engine is on a stand

I was looking through the box of bits that came back with my heads looking for the dizzy lock-down nut and found this sensor - anyone know where it should live because I can't recall where it came from. Anyone know what it is for?

Next question - my gasket kit has green plasticy intake gasket sets (you might see them in the engine photos). I was going to reuse the old gaskets but found one of the thick ones with a crack - should I just use the single plasticy one or a combination or pull a replacement thick one off the 2.5 and just use the old ones?

Photos:
1 - flywheel
2&3 - Gratuitous engine photos
4 - unknown sensor

[Sheldon McIntosh]

This is a good thread, I'll certainly be using the flywheel information when I do my next 3.0 install.  First time I just used my 2.5 pulley and flywheel because I was in a hurry, and it was going to get limited use as a track car, but next time I do it will be in a road car so I will research more thoroughly.

Is that the oil pressure sender?

Is that just a generic engine stand you're using?  I was told not to do that with an alloy block, and that it must be held by the side mounts.  Seems to be working okay for you though?

[Storm_X]

Funny innit.  What's a 164 complete car worth?  $500.  What's a pair of good 164 headlights worth?  $500.  What's a good 164 3.0L v6 worth?  $500.

What is a complete 75 twin spark worth ? $1000
How much is a 75 twin spark engine worth ? $1000
How much is a 76 twin spark gearbox worth ? $1000

[Nate Dog]

Engine shots are far too sexy to be gratuitous!!!

Looks the part. Keep the posts coming. fun thread to follow.

[TimD]

I was looking through the box of bits that came back with my heads looking for the dizzy lock-down nut and found this sensor - anyone know where it should live because I can't recall where it came from. Anyone know what it is for?

Looking good Marty,

It looks like the Nox Device. It goes on the thermostat tree.

Have a look here http://www.hiperformancestore.com/Ljetronic.htm about 1/3 (Step 3) of the way down it discusses the Nox device.

I disconnected it and reset the timing.