Alfa GTV Rear Fixed Windows

[Fylnn]

I am trying to track down water leaks in my 83 GTV.  The boot keeps filling with water.  It seems to be coming in around the fixed rear window in the seat area.  When I feel up over the top of the wheel arch, on one side I can feel a little drain pipe that directs water down the edge of the wheel arch and out the bottom.  That pipe is missing on the other side so the water that gets in just runs everywhere.  My other problem seems to be that the rubber moulding on the bottom of the fixed window has somehow over the years 'shrunk' and i have about an inch gap either end.  Where the rubber is, most of the water runs straight over the top of the rubber moulding and away down the guard.  But the rest goes down the gap and inside the car via the non-existent drain.

So it seems to really tackle all this I have to remove the trim holding the rubber moulding on the bottom of the window and replace the 'shrunken' rubber with something better.  It also seems that I have to remove the fixed window and get into the cavity below it and properly fix and replace the drain hoses that should have been there on one side.

So anyone know firstly how to remove this trim and also the window, and secondly if there is a replacement rubber seal available anywhere in the world?

[colcol]

First of all, see if you can source a replacement rubber before you pull the old one out, possibly ruining it due to its age, the way i usually remove a window with a rubber seal is to start on the inside of the car where you can access the rubber, and where the rubber channel is installed on the metal frame, get some old cut in half hacksaw blades or blunt butter knifes and insert them into the top of the rubber where it sits on the metal and put one in the centre and then about 5 blades either side at the top and gently lever the blades down until the rubber starts to come free, and then gently push by hand the rubber seal until it pops out, this method worked on my 33 when i removed the back window at christmas, there is most likely a clip on youtube showing you how to do it, where you lever against the metal you will scratch the paintwork so make sure you touch up the paintwork before putting the new seal back in, but get a new one first!, Colin.

[Beatle]

Been a loooong time, but from memory:

1. New rubber seals, the ones installed into the outer stainless trim (yours will be black on an '83), are impossible to source.  In the past I've salvaged old pieces, cut them, and slipped them into the trim to make up the gap.  i.e. you end up with more than one piece of rubber in the trim, against the glass.
2.  The outer seals are never 100% waterproof so don't lose too much sleep over a shrunken seal.   The combination of drains, tubes, and importantly the membrane inside the panel, is designed to route water into the bottom of the panel, and out the lower drains.  Pull the inner trim off and ensure that the membranes are 100% intact, and that they are installed correctly.  If not, make new ones from heavy clear plastic (clear makes it easier to see what you are doing).  Note the way that the membranes are attached, and particularly the way the sealing mastic is formed to route water away from holes in the membrane (like around the widnow winder), and not allow anywhere for water to pool.  Old mastic goes dry.  It's basically like a length of plasticine with string up the centre.   Rather than re-use it, I clean it all off and use windshield mastic instead.  It can be messy so keep it off upholstery.
3.  Replace your drain tubes.  Run a length of whipper snipper cord up them to ensure they are open.
4.  With the inner upholstered panel trims removed you should be able to work out how the rear side glass, and the outer steel trims are attached.  From memory, everything is pop-riveted in place.   I can't remember exactly how the glass is held in place, but I do remember it's not particularly accurate.  The fixed glass can ofen be easily moved within its mounts (open the boot and clamp the glass with both hands, one inside, one outside, and you'll see what I mean) .   You may need to move the vertical metal section at the front of the fixed side glass to get the glass out (the part the moveable window glass slides in) but I don't think so.  I'm pretty sure the fixed glass is simply slid up into place, and held up by a couple of riveted supports.  Like I said, it's been a long time since I completely stripped a 116 coupe.
5. I would also look at removing the front door trims and checking the membranes in them as well.  Often people trash them installing speakers etc.
6.  Membranes don't need to look perfect.  But they need to be installed such that any water entering the inner panels, is directed down into the lower reaches of the panel, and has no chance of wetting the back of the door cards, or flowing into the cabin floor over the sills.
7.  Do you have a sunroof?
8.  There are also drains at the training edges of the tailgate, and if these are blocked, water getting past the rear hatch window seal will drip inside the boot (you can often hear water sloshing inside the hatch when you lift it up).  A trick is to drill a hole immediately aft of the rubber bump stop in the hatch.  This allows water to drain outside of the boot rubber seal and down over the tail lights.   Make the hole fairly largish (1/4" or so) de-berr it, and treat the bare metal so it doesn't rust.
9.  Make sure all your panels are free of crud inside, and that the drains are all free.  No panel is ever watertight so it's critical that instead of striving to make it so, you simply ensure any water getting in, can get out.   No water traps.   And, keep dirt, hair, rags etc out of the inner cavities.  Don't be afraid to use clean water inside a cavity to clean it out.  make sure any rustproofing products don't pool and block the drains.  Don't be afraid to drill additonal drain holes either, just be sure to deburr the edges and paint/treat any bare metal.  And make sure the drains are at the lowest point, or it defeats the purpose as water can still pool.

[Fylnn]

Wow detailed response thank you.  My main apparent problem is that the drain on the LHS has disappeared altoghter.  So hoping if i can get the window out hoping i can make up something to go in its place. 

[aggie57]

Those rear most side windows sit on a couple of small L-shaped supports that are screwed onto the inner panel.  Nearly always rust out by the way....

To get the glass out however you slide it forward, away from the rear "V" shape in the panel.  So to remove them you need to first remove the track on the front bit that winds down.  I'd say in manufacture they installed the rear glass then the winding down window.

I've stripped down a couple of GTV's and to be honest I don't recall the drain tubes you mention, at least on cars without sunroofs.  I have a partially striped GTV in my garage at work which you welcome to come and take a look at - the windows and interrior are all out but the rear bodywork is intact. 

Have you done a hose test?  As in open the hatch and spray water onto the suspect area? 

[BBRT]

G'day,

I think that rubber section is available from Re-Originals in the USA. Check their website. The Haynes manual details how to get the window out.

[Beatle]

I've stripped down a couple of GTV's and to be honest I don't recall the drain tubes you mention, at least on cars without sunroofs.
Have you done a hose test?  As in open the hatch and spray water onto the suspect area?

I agree with Aggie.  I don't recall drain tubes.  I don't know what area they would be draining?

With a hose test, the best idea is to get a TRUSTED helper to shut you in the boot with a torch, then they spray the car and you see where water is coming in.

Are you sure it's not coming from the base of the hatch?   There are small drain tubes there that can dislodge/crack.

And a word of caution.  If you ever need to disturb the window winder cable mechanisms (drum,  pulleys etc) make sure you securely and tightly wire the cable to the drum before releasing any tension on the cable.  If the cable comes loose it can be re-wound, but it's a job best avoided....... at all costs.

Does the boot fill with water only when sitting in rain, only when on the road, or both?

[Fylnn]

It leaks when I wash it or it stands in the rain mostly.  These drain tubes I am talking about are underneath the side fixed window itself.  With all the trim out of the boot, reach right up over the top of the wheel arch and there is a short tube that seems to drain the cavity under the window.  It is a short tube that does not drain the water as such it basically directs the water over to the top of the wheel arch, where the water then runs down the channel formed where the inner arch meets the mud guard.  The water then runs down the wheel arch and out the bottom of the guard. 

[GTVeloce]

Hi Flynn

I have just recently pulled these windows out of an 83 GTV. Basically;
1. Remove the rear seat and rear trims.
2. You may also need to loosen or remove the hatch privacy screen.
3. Remove the plastic weather proofing.
4. Wind the window down all the way. I am not sure if you will need to remove the window completely but I did as I wanted them out. If so, it is a couple of screws at the bottom and work them up and out.
5. Two rivets need to be drilled out at the top of the vertical window channel. This can then be removed by working it out (not sure if possible with winding window still in).
6. The rear most glass then just slides forward and comes out.

I have found a good place that sells all manor of seals;
http://www.highwoodalfa.com/627c5e7c-acf4-4fd7-8ed2-d10a1544c86b-9.html

Good luck!

[Cool Jesus]

Yeah the drains seem to be an after thought from the '80s on for the Alfetta, perhaps to combat rusting issues. Did these Alfas have a rust issue? Jokes! The hatch also had some drainage piping. You might find that the gap in the outer rubber seal has slowly filled with dirt and crap causing any water to find other routes to escape. As mentioned, follow the above detailed fix it and make sure the drain holes under the car panels aren't clogged. The way the rear window channel is formed it directs any water down towards the front cavity over the wheel arch to then drain via the drains formed in the bottom sills. They are an elongated slit which can invariably get clogged if not cleaned or even squashed closed from jacking the car up with other non original jacks. It seems the drain pipe was an after thought to combat the rubber shrinkage? Ill see if I have a photo of what the fixed window channel looks like with window removed for you Flynn from my stripped Alfetta or get one posted for you, unless someone beats me to it.

If its entering your boot, it reeks of a rust hole having perforated a sill lip somewhere. Either in the channel of the fixed window or even under the rubber seal around the hatch? The later is an easy check to rule out. Just pull the seal of and check for holes. Either way, your concern is justified, you don't want water siting in the Alfetta 

[Cool Jesus]

Sorry Flynn, don't have a photo on file of the channel per se, sans window... In any case in this photo you can see how the fixed window in my 76 Alfetta sits in this 'sealed' channel to direct any ingress of external water along towards the front to then fall down beside the black glass upright on the right. The glob of grey putty on the right near the top of the channel is the L bracket that was mentioned by others earlier. The putty used as a water sealer, I also believe there's another over on the left where the grey fluffy stuff is (stuck to putty) in the black area. Whilst I was stripping my Alfetta, even after some time of being out of the weather, there was water pooled in the cavity due to blocked drainage. Anyhow, if your getting water in the boot, you've got a leak (rust?) somewhere in the channel to the left of the blackened area or the piping isn't doing its job. Alternatively, as mentioned, the hatch seal and lip may be comprimised?

[Beatle]

After all my suggestions, could it simply be water running between the rear hatch glass and it's seal/gasket?  Sealing with windshield mastic, on the glass and body sides of the gasket, will seal it up.