Action at the Island during IPRA race

[Neil Choi]

My BMW mate caught this during his race.

At ~2:30min

[Neil Choi]

Another view.

[Jekyll and Hyde]

Neil, maybe you should use that video at driver training days for a prime example of why you should jump on the brakes as hard as you can when you've lost it.  Fair chance no-one would have sustained much more damage than brown underwear if he'd done that - instead he just fires off to the outside of the track when the slide stops...

[Neil Choi]

Yep, you have a good idea.  I am sure Prof Sharp and perhaps Mr Choderboy would say the same from their experience.

Also much like this one.

[Sheldon McIntosh]

Neil, maybe you should use that video at driver training days for a prime example of why you should jump on the brakes as hard as you can when you've lost it.  Fair chance no-one would have sustained much more damage than brown underwear if he'd done that - instead he just fires off to the outside of the track when the slide stops...

I must be missing something in that video, can you explain further what you say here?  I'm not trying to be difficult, I just can't see anything other than an unfortunate racing incident, but I'm happy to be enlightened.

[Mick A]

Hey Sheldon,

It is an unfortunate racing incident.

Ben is talking about the driver releasing the brake pedal prematurely, before the car has come to rest. Once you've lost control and there is go chance of regaining it, you are better off just putting your foot through the floor and locking up the wheels. The car's mass and inertia will cause it to continue on it's current trajectory, and it is much more predictable to drivers around you.

By releasing the brakes, the wheels turn and the tyres grip, which disturbs it's inertia, and it's own mass will cause the car to change direction quickly as seen in the video.

I think however in this case there would have definitely been some form of contact between cars either way, it looks unavoidable and this is all a part of motor racing.

I'm sure quite a few of you remember a few years ago at an AROCA sprint, the clubman that backed into the old pit wall at winton and caught fire. The driver was seriously injured and was airlifted to hospital.

He lost control through the esses, and it was absolutely 100% because of releasing the brakes mid-slide he shot toward the inside wall at very high speed. If he had kept the foot buried, he would have 4 flat spotted tyres and some brown jocks, but a straight car and no helicopter ride.

-Mick

[Sheldon McIntosh]

Yep, all good points.

I think that RX7 driver was in a no-win situation though.  From the looks of it, he tried to catch it until the last possible moment, and from then if he'd stood on the brakes (which it looks like he tried to do for a few more moments) he would have been stopped in the middle of the track.  As we all know when we've had a spin in a track car, you may not be able to get your car started, so I can imagine that in the heat of the moment he might have thought about releasing the brakes and hopefully spinning around 180.

Yes, I agree, on a track day, when we aren't that close together (ahem), full braking would definitely be the safest for everyone involved.

I think this comment is a little unfair on the driver involved though, because that's not what I saw, but that's just my opinion....

he just fires off to the outside of the track when the slide stops...

[Simon Bidese]

Hi Mick,

"I'm sure quite a few of you remember a few years ago at an AROCA sprint, the clubman that backed into the old pit wall at winton and caught fire. The driver was seriously injured and was airlifted to hospital. "

I remember this incident unfortunately very well!!!!! I was the nut on the end of the fire extinguisher.
It was certainly an eye opener for a beginner back then.

I couldn't agree more.....when in doubt....bury your foot on the brake pedal.

Cheers,

Simon

[aggie57]

Have to agree with Mick and Neil on this.  When in doubt, stamp that middle pedal hard and wait for the thing to stop.

Many years ago when Frank Porter owned the Ignis GTV6 now owned by Hugh, he came into that corner at Winton absolutely on the limit and the thing stepped out.  He jumped straight onto the brakes and stopped in the middle of the road, around the entry road.  No drama, no damage.  Just turned it around and got going again.  Magnificent driving from a really good steerer.

[Neil Choi]

Yes most agreeable on that one, that's first and only thing I have ever told my two kids (to protect my car!!!).  That middle pedal is a bit more important than the one that makes noise.

Physics you got to love it but can't defy it or can you?

Happy to say that Bill England my mate has recovered well enough to get on with life and I see him at every race meeting and he always come up to say hello and offer a tip or two on going faster.

[Jekyll and Hyde]

Yep, all good points.

I think that RX7 driver was in a no-win situation though.  From the looks of it, he tried to catch it until the last possible moment, and from then if he'd stood on the brakes (which it looks like he tried to do for a few more moments) he would have been stopped in the middle of the track.  As we all know when we've had a spin in a track car, you may not be able to get your car started, so I can imagine that in the heat of the moment he might have thought about releasing the brakes and hopefully spinning around 180.

Yes, I agree, on a track day, when we aren't that close together (ahem), full braking would definitely be the safest for everyone involved.

I think this comment is a little unfair on the driver involved though, because that's not what I saw, but that's just my opinion....

he just fires off to the outside of the track when the slide stops...

Nothing unfair about it at all.  He's at the ripple strip on the inside of the track at the point the tyres reach an angle close to his current heading, then all the inertia of the car, including the rotational forces are completely unrestrained, as the wheels are free to rotate in that direction.  Nature takes its course, and the car heads in the path of least resistance - which is about 15 degrees to the right of where it was heading before, straight across the path of the car he hit.  Who, until that point, had a reasonable chance of avoiding the rx7, although he was walled in on the outside (which would be the final deciding factor). 

In my opinion, if he'd jumped on the brakes halfway through the slide, at the point where it should have been obvious to anyone it wasn't coming back, he'd most likely have finished up near the ripple strip on the inside of the track.  The actual speed of the rx7 at the point it begins rolling backwards completely unrestrained was not that great, and should have been pulled up in pretty short order had the brakes been applied.  Not to mention having the front wheels locked for the duration between applying the brakes and heading backwards would have decreased the distance covered in the slide and the speed at the point of heading backwards.  You suggest he's released the brakes, I suggest they were never applied.  No significant smoke that I can see, nor black lines, even when watched full screen in the highest quality.  I could be wrong, but like you, I have my opinion.

Maybe there would have still been contact, maybe not.  It certainly wouldn't have been as big a hit, and would have given the rest of the field a valuable few split seconds to make the evasive moves, not to mention the cloud of tyre smoke to warn drivers further back in the field of a potential obstacle.

And as far as your comment about it being a good idea on a track day but not in a race, to me that is a really stupid thing to say.  Does that mean if you get into a slide (wet tram track perhaps) driving through the CBD, you should plant the accelerator and try and fishtail your way out of it, because there's more to hit (pedestrians, walls, trams etc), than if you were in the middle of nowhere? 

Personally, I looped it coming through the middle of the cows tits last 6 hour, having just passed about 4 cars through the previous two corners.  I jumped hard on the brakes, and came to a stop on the outside edge of the track off the racing line, and about 6 cars which were right behind me went past me without incident, some two wide.  Had I not jumped on the brakes, I would have seesawed back and forth across the section of track between the middle and last corner of the cow tits, and almost certainly been cleaned up or caused an incident, due to the unpredictable nature of my slide.  Evasive action is much simpler if you only have to have one go at it - the odds quickly stack up against you when you have to try again.

Yes, motor racing incidents occur, it's part of the game.  Some however, could have been avoided or at least had the severity reduced - and shouldn't that be a goal for all of us?  Here's an interesting question for you - how many people who race in whatever form, be it club sprints or state level racing, have ever actually been told what you should do in the case of losing control on the track?  I'm sure it's not in the CAMS manual, and there are a lot of drivers out there who had any form of instruction, they've simply ordered their CAMS licence and gone out on the track in whatever form. 

That was actually part of the reason for my first post - I knew someone would pop their head up and say it's just a racing incident, you're being a tosser*.  I'm happy to wear that, as we've now got a discussion going on the topic, and hopefully at least a few of the drivers who've never been given that suggestion before might read this and take it on board.  Just maybe it will prevent one of the 'avoidable' incidents...

* Guilty as charged. Always.

[Sheldon McIntosh]

And as far as your comment about it being a good idea on a track day but not in a race, to me that is a really stupid thing to say. 

Where did I say that?

[Jekyll and Hyde]

And as far as your comment about it being a good idea on a track day but not in a race, to me that is a really stupid thing to say. 

Where did I say that?

Sorry, I must have misunderstood your meaning in the quote below.  What did you actually mean?

Yes, I agree, on a track day, when we aren't that close together (ahem), full braking would definitely be the safest for everyone involved.

[Simon Bidese]

"Happy to say that Bill England my mate has recovered well enough to get on with life and I see him at every race meeting and he always come up to say hello and offer a tip or two on going faster."

Neil glad to hear that....was wondering how he's doing.

Cheers

Simon

[Sheldon McIntosh]

Sorry, I must have misunderstood your meaning in the quote below.  What did you actually mean?

Yes, I agree, on a track day, when we aren't that close together (ahem), full braking would definitely be the safest for everyone involved.

Okay, I didn't think it would get much clearer than that, but I meant that at a track day, when theoretically you're not too close to other drivers, if they lose it and then lock up the brakes, you theoretically would have plenty of time to take any avoiding action.

I take your point that the driver should have had his brakes on when he 'came to a stop' though, and that may have avoided the incident, I completely agree.  I must admit that I couldn't actually see that in the original video.  I found this better one, which shows exactly that.

One point I would like to make though, is that not all corners are identical, and not all 'lose' situations are identical.  In this case, I disagree with some of your readings of the situation.  This corner is off-camber, with a nasty little drop-off.  I think it's entirely possible that if the RX-7 had stood on the brakes when the slide had become 'un-recoverable' he would have slid down the camber, down the drop-off, and rolled himself.  Even if you disagree with this assessment, you surely can't deny that that may have been going through the drivers head at the time?  Self-preservation may have been a key in his decision, in my opinion.  It's all too easy to apportion blame after the fact.

Don't get me wrong, I completely agree that when no other situation presents itself, standing on the brakes is absolutely the best option.  But I would also say that (about 0.05% of the time) it is not necessarily always the best option.  To take your previous example where you misquoted me, and then talked about losing it on wet tram lines.  What if your brakes lock up on wet tram lines and you're heading for a pedestrian?  Should you just keep it locked-up?  Clearly not, you should let off the brakes, steer off the wet tram lines to find traction, and then brake again.

I've had a situation where I lost it at high-speed, (and yes, stood on the brakes), but then slid-off onto downhill wet-grass at about 160km/h.  If I'd kept my foot on the brake I would have hit a wall, drivers-side, at probably more than 150km/h.  Instead, I let off the brake and let the car's momentum spin it around a few times. 

As I've already said, I agree that in almost every scenario standing on the brakes is the best thing to do.  But I think that there are certain times when it is not the best thing to do.  To bring it back on topic though, yes you're correct, the RX7 shouldn't have let his car spin back around after coming to a halt.

That was actually part of the reason for my first post - I knew someone would pop their head up and say it's just a racing incident, you're being a tosser*.  I'm happy to wear that, as we've now got a discussion going on the topic, and hopefully at least a few of the drivers who've never been given that suggestion before might read this and take it on board.  Just maybe it will prevent one of the 'avoidable' incidents...

Well done, you certainly did that.  Sorry to be the tosser that disagreed...