erratic clutch in 147 JTDm

[Southern75]

Hi All,

My 147 daily driver has been a great car but have always though that the clutch was a bit heavy. No big deal ... it always made a creaky kinda noise when actualed as well.

Anyway ... i replaced the hydraulic units which shut it up and made it a fair bit lighter.

However .. some days now it actually hurts me to drive and other days the clutch is fine.

On the days it hurts to drive it feel like it clicks the last 1/2" or so

What does this mean?

Btw I'm usually light on clutches and they usually last well over 100k with city driving (in my other cars) and the 147 has only 48k on it.

Any suggestions?

[colcol]

Try bleeding the clutch, if it is like the 156 JTS, its bled a different way to the old conventional clutches, there is no bleed nipple as we know it, you put the hose on a scewed object that looks like a bleed nipple, and push the pipe that open the flow of fluid, and then push it back to close the flow, if you haven't tried this, give it a go.
The Diesel may have a heavier clutch than a petrol, the 156 JTS has a slave cylinder built into the gearbox, elimininating the clutch fork, this gives a lighter clutch than a twin spark, that has the slave cylinder on the outside of the gearbox with a clutch fork, i don't know what the diesels have, try another 147 to see if its as heavy as yours, the 147's i have driven have got ok clutches, not too heavy, before drastic action just try another one, Colin.

[Southern75]

Thanks Colin,

I have replaced both master and slave cylinders and they were bled by an Alfa specialist
So it should be ok. I have driven ts jts and gta and they are all lighter.

I've been told the diaphragm has sagged. But I can't explain the inconsistency.
It may get heavier when the cars been running for longer. Today I went on maybe a 20k round trip,
the clutch was fine but it got to the point I did a bunny hop or two and about a k later it was fine again.

Could it be a defective clutch? I've never actually had a failure before, only ever had them slowly die all with more than 100k. Btw after about 20k and 3 race meetings my sud clutch looks brand new so I doubt it's me.

[colcol]

Ok, so you have replaced the slave and master cylinder and have had it bled, there is only one more thing to do and that is replace the clutch, i had a clutch fail in a non Alfa Romeo, to engage and disengage was requiriring more travel than the clutch pedal had and the gearbox was crunching because the clutch wasn't releasing enough.
The springs in the pressure plate have most likely become weak, ......gearbox out and new clutch assembly in, i made the mistake with this non Alfa car when i was younger, i replaced the clutch plate only and not the assembly and 12 months later the pressure plate started playing up, Sud and 33 clutches, they must be the best clutches in the world, never worn one out, but when engine or gearbox comes out, a new clutch goes in, as they are quite cheap for a Valeo, Colin.

[Southern75]

Well Col,

Driving it yesterday ... i suspect the pressure plate totally collapsed ... it's ked (with 3 letters in fron of it) and it's rattling and carrying on. Sounds like diaphragm fingers clattering around in there.

I was just starting off and it bunny hopped a little ... and i was thinking ... crap ... i couldn't have done that... then it was fine ... stopped at a set of lights ... went to put it in gear ... crunch ... pumped it .. it went in ... and took off ... and then nothing ....

Oh well ... back to the 75 for a while. 

[colcol]

Gearbox out, see what damage is done and order a new clutch, these things don't fix themselves and clutches like brakes are designed to wear out the JTM puts out a lot of torque, you would expect a clutch to go for 100,000klms, may have had a fault from the start, have you checked the overseas Forums for any weakpoints in the JTM clutches?, Colin.

[Steve S]

The diaphragm is likely suspect but I suspect there will be a problem with the friction plate also. A spring maybe broken, dislodged etc. That may cause an inconsistent problem.

[bix]

My 156 TS had a very heavy clutch before replacing it. Once the clutch was replaced I couldn't believe how light it had become. Bruno advised me that this is typical of a worn clutch.

[Southern75]

Shouldn't have been worn at 47k considering I have about 130k on my corolla and its going strong

[bix]

Very true. Mine got me to 110k with the odd track day.

[Evan Bottcher]

I have heard mumbles from folk on the alfaowner.com forum about early clutch failures on the Alfa diesels.  I still would have thought sub-50k would be pretty unlucky though.

[Southern75]

You're telling me Evan. I did complain about it when it was under warranty ... it just never felt right. Sadly with my HiLux... it had a similar thing and toyota didn't even argue with me ... gave me a loan car whilst they couriered a new clutch in ... plus they machined the flywheel to make doubly sure ...

Anyway ... on the bright side ... it has ensured that my 75 has got a good run ... kinda forgot how much fun it really is ... bit thirsty round town compared to the 147 ... but i think that has something to do with the much more appealing engine note. Can't say the diesel sounds particularly nice ... just ... purposeful

Hey every cloud has a silver lining doesn't it!?

[Southern75]

No lubrication on the clutch fork or thrust race .. hence it weekend the thrust bearing carrier and the thrust race failed ...
full of rust ... nice work alfa

[colcol]

Has your JTDm have a slave cylinder in the gearbox, without a clutch fork or a conventional clutch fork with the slave cylinder mounted outside the gearbox?
I have found with 33 and Sud clutches wear out after about 10 years due to the clutch bearing wearing a groove in the pressure plate clutch fingers, i always put some grease on the clutch bearing where it contacts the fingers on the pressure plate, but it is always dry when i pull them apart.
If the pressure plate fingers are a bit soft and the bearing isn't a good quality hardened bearing, then they will wear out.
Always use Valeo or Sachs clutches, some of these cheaper clutches are being made in third world countries, with inconsistant quality.
If your 147 has a in gearbox slave cylinder, just relace it with a new one, don't re-kit the old one, the slight saving you make will be offset by the risk of it leaking, and then it will be gearbox out and a new clutch.
Hey Southern75, did you do the cluch yourself?, and if yes, what was it like pulling a gearbox out of a 147?, Colin.

[Southern75]

Hi Col,

the slave cylinder is mounted externally and it has an interesting clutch fork, which has two arms which radiate out from a spindly which is perpendiuclar to the input shaft.

No I didn't pull the box out myself, definitely not a floor of the garage job ... It needs a support brace made as to take the box out requires the engine supported at two of the 3 engine mounts come out. Done by Downie and Downie in Sydney

Apparently it is a heaps better job than the earlier 147's but a lot has to come out. Feels great now ... totally different car to drive.

And yes ... had already changed master and slave cyl when fault finding earlier ... so they only have about 5-10k on them ... yes ... Valeo clutch ... they were cheap enough and it was too hard to find non-genuine... i dont think Sachs has a clutch for the 147 diesel.

Speaking of which does anyone know about the 1.9 JTTDm engine ... it sounds pretty cool ... or at least I'd like the intake and the map for one?