Difference between Alfaholics and Classic Alfa parts that look the same?

[andrewi]

I have been buying bits for my 74 GTV 2000 from many places Alfaholics, Classic Alfa and Highwood in UK for instance  - and generally have found them all to be excellent - but occasionally problems - usually because I didn't give enough information - usually because I didn't know a choice was involved - ignorance maybe bliss but expensive...  specially if you paid air freight..

Many times the parts look the same on the web sites, sometimes same price, sometimes different.

Eg Currently looking at the race propshafts offered by Alfaholics and Classic Alfa - they look like the same part, but very different prices before shipping

£495.00   http://www.classicalfa.com/products/GB111-COMPETITION-PROPSHAFT-CONVERSION-%252d-ALL-GT%7B47%7DGTVs.html

£650.00   http://www.alfaholics.com/2010/07/alfaholics-full-length-race-propshaft-117/

The question is - are they the same?  Similar with their aluminium panels and many other bits.  Do you just buy the cheaper one?

Similarly the crown and pinion wheels - looking for a 4.3 set for LSD in my 74 GTV 2000

£795.00   http://www.alfaholics.com/2010/07/alfaholics-crown-wheel-pinion-sets-117/

£850.00   http://www.classicalfa.com/products/GB059-LIGHTWEIGHT-CROWN-WHEEL-%26-PINION-8%7B47%7D41-.html

Was wondering if anyone had feedback on them.  I shall ask Vin and Rob.

Appreciated andrew

[pancho]

Andrew,

If you're after a NOS 4:3 C&P for much less than those prices send me a pm.

Note - a lot of repro parts are either out of the same factory or are purchased from other large sellers - EB spares and Alfa Service provide AH with a lot of items that are merely resold with a mark up. AH do get a lot of their custom bits made by local UK contractors to their own spec.

[Davidm1600]

That is true, but equally also not so.  The reason I say that is that I have in maintaining my 156 over the years I have checked both local prices and those offered by EB, and EB have won hands down for factory parts including postage.  So given that, I find it hard to believe there really is an issue of significant mark up, or that perhaps just in Aus the mark-up by Alfa Australia and the main suppliers being horrendous.

Again, equally in dealing with Classic Alfa for my GTv, what is so for Alfaholics I would have to suspect is true also for Classic Alfa, in that they both offer the exact same part, but yet there can be price differences.  This also being true for Highwood.

From my own (and yes limited experience), I always find it best to ask direct questions of any of the suppliers to ensure you are receiving exactly what you need.

[pancho]

True - but equally not so? It's either true or not.

David - do you think AH and CA buy from suppliers and sell at a loss ? As a basic business rule, AH would be buying wholesale and as I said 'mark up' the price to suit their business model; which marketing themselves as a premium brand means higher prices.

AH (for 105 GT parts at least) is a tad more expensive than CA, whether its by a few pounds or more. I know - I did the comparo on a big list.

[Davidm1600]

I probably didn't quite make my points as clear as I should have Pancho.  Of course any supplier buying stock from the manufacturer has to put a mark up on what they paid for something (simple business logic 101) and so yes true that happens, but then again equally it is all proportional as to where or from whom you purchase, as to the level/extent of the mark up and so not quite so true.  That is the general thrust of what I was trying to say.

The rationale I was drawing is that while EB undoubtedly add a % to the price, based on my experiences to date, given the overall higher level of turnover of parts they deal with say in comparison to what is sold here in Aus, they can offer parts at a far lower price than is available here from our local suppliers.  Similarly, use of EBay sellers also can offer some advantages price wise over purchasing from the normal suppliers.  Mind you quality control in some instances from some Ebay suppliers might be questionable.

The next thing is that yes of course both Alfaholics and Classic Alfa purchase parts from a range of suppliers (i.e. generic parts that are readily  available and required by most restoring the cars, using reproduction parts) and equally they also specially commission manufacturers to make specialist stock for them.  Alfaholics having chased extensively the high end/high performance market in addition to the normal stuff, over and beyond what Classic Alfa, Highwood, EB in the UK and  IAP, Centreline and perhaps Spruell have in the States.  For such specially commissioned parts it therefore is inevitable due to the low production runs that such parts are always going to be far more expensive.

The key, as you note, and  what I too equally have done in the past is to make a list of everything you might need/want and then to cross compare suppliers.  That way you should be able to find the best prices, as they do vary, to suit your budget.

However and in context to the question asked originally, I think it is also equally important to ask/check with the suppliers that the parts you think you need for your car are the correct parts for your car, year and model.  As I noted, the suppliers I have dealt with in the past I have always found to be most helpful in dealing with such issues.

[andrewi]

I hadn't known about EB Spares - http://www.ebspares.co.uk/index.html
Definitely not the prettiest web site (they really do need a better one - personally its a shocker) - but certainly lots of bits - good looking bits and across more models than 105's - most alfa (all?) models in fact.  Freight maybe cheaper as well...

Rob (Mr Tradition - if it ain't broke - don't fix it - love you dearly Rob - and I will be truely thankful for what ever mega engine you build me!) has chastised me about chasing a solution for a problem I don't have - I do have a "ohh look shiney" problem sometimes.  ie why chase a better propshaft if current one works fine!  No problem here,  nothing to see, move along!

Pancho - I shall talk to you soon about a NOS 4:3 C&P I shan't need it for a while but I will need one (about 1 to 2 years definitely and a close ratio box maybe) - the focus currently is just to get the new engine/clutch/exhaust etc in the car and back on the road/track and having fun - I am sooo missing the fun - and its only been a couple of weeks!   Unfortunately I will have to pay my current commitments first.

I have no problem with vendors earning a living (we all need to do that), I just wish that they would more clearly identify their suppliers to help us "know" the parts in question - but then I also understand that that is their competitive place in the market and don't want to tell other suppliers where they are getting their "bits" - so it just leaves us buyer's in the dark a little - hence my question - and I suppose why lots of people stick with "new old stock - NOS" - unfortunately I'm more of a Draft Punk sort of guy - newer - faster - stronger - which why is my back pocket is lighter as well! 

That said - Know anyone that needs a new US 105 3 exit water pump (they are different - has/needs a longer stud near the exit pipe) I have one now going cheap... one of the few mistakes along the way in acquiring all the parts for a full engine rebuild - I think I bought just about everything except a new block and crankshaft (although Spruell facebook says he one now... can't find it on his web site tho...  Don't talk to me about mono blocks$$$$$... ohh shiney!).

ta andrew.

[pancho]

No problem Andrew - but in a year or two you'll be luckier to find Gillard in power than a 4:3 NOS C&P. I suggest to stick to NOS for everything expect mechanical stuff and you 'should' be ok. Unfortunately NOS is easier said than found.

[Spada]

Hi Andrew,

I'm a financial realist. How many manufacturers of a small volume unique car part would there be? One, if you're lucky. Too many times have I come across "original" parts in fancy packaging, identical to the OEM product at a fraction of the price.

There is no doubt that modern materials science and manufacturing techniques (i.e. olerances) are far superior to those of the old days. I remember when still a kid buying spare parts with my dad (he ran an automotive workshop) and we often would compare parts. I have to admit it does come down to experience as to what you buy original, what you buy OEM and what you buy on the cheap. No easy answer unfortunately. My favourite example is oil filters.  You never see whts's inside one. Car manufacturers rely upon others to make theirs, and the same poduct is available after market for less. If you know your brands. The danger is if you dont't, and buy an inferior prouct to save few cents, it could mess up the most important part of your engine.

Cutting a long story short - I buy from both AH and CA, usually tallying up the price of what I need and going with the cheaper one.  I figure they both have a reputation to uphold, and most likely buy from the same suppliers. Regardless, they are better quality than the bits they are replacing. And don't despair, we all have the odd screw up moment and order the wrong parts - that's why we have 'parts bins' 

[giulia_veloce]

Hin Andrew

Forgot to mention the high beam headlights (105 1750 series 2 + 2 litre) you and another customer purchased from a very reputable Alfa place overseas.
Both sets do not have Carello in the glass.
They look the same,and do the job,but advertised as originals.
Had both cars here side by side,with the front of the cars looking at me all day.
Had to turn the cars around so the taillights looked at me cause it upset me
Andrew,i know yours is a race car,but the other car was immaculate.
Just one of many examples

[Craig_m67]

Hin Andrew

Forgot to mention the high beam headlights (105 1750 series 2 + 2 litre) you and another customer purchased from a very reputable Alfa place overseas.
Both sets do not have Carello in the glass.
They look the same,and do the job,but advertised as originals.
Had both cars here side by side,with the front of the cars looking at me all day.
Had to turn the cars around so the taillights looked at me cause it upset me
Andrew,i know yours is a race car,but the other car was immaculate.
Just one of many examples

If the supplier has advertised the headlamps as NOS (new old stock/original) then they should be exactly correct ie. Carello (italic or block script dependant on age.. RHD 08.480..?)**. If something else has been supplied then why haven't they simply been returned as not as described and/or a refund/credit requested. I find it hard to believe that any of the reputable suppliers would pass something like this off as NOS (or even OEM) when it can so easily be identified as not.

** I tracked down two new original RHD Carello lamps for my Duetto a while ago, they were not cheap (+A$800 from mem.).

I agree with everybody else's comments about products and the suppliers. I expect most reproduction parts are essentially from the same manufacturers. I think the prices mostly vary based upon their buying power and available stock (cost to them when they bought it). AH do market themselves as  premium but they're not always more expensive.

Always make a list of everything you could ever possibly need (Lotto/Powerball dependant). I price the parts from all suppliers (inc freight!) and then purchase the ones needed dependant on resto schedule or availability if they're rare (RHD Carello headlamps!!) I order as much as I can and always ask for a discount. You don't get if you don't ask.  EB and CA are good for it, AH have always refused me - and as such they only get orders for their specifically developed bits (and don't forget Spruell in the US)

Creating a spreadsheet of parts, prices and scheduling tasks realistically to a timeline is a very entertaining thing for any resto.  I highly recommend it, buy plenty of alcohol and read Panchos/Derek's/Ossos build threads for balance and courage *L*

I have some original, used, LHD Carellos for anybody who must have the Carello script (regardless of which way the light is pointing)

[pancho]

Rob's brought up a good point there. I'd be interested to see if the glass is as thick and chip/crack resistant as the originals are.

Be advised that here is also now Carello branded headlights (in addition to tail light lenses) being made by overseas companies. Sold as originals - but they are not.

I have now had 2 email stoushes with reputable German stores about some duetto and GT lenses they were trying to pass off as NOS. I don't bother any more.

Sorry to burst some Alfisti's bubbles about today's product quality being better - the fact is that the original stuff is miles ahead in quality and finish over today's repro stuff. Go compare an original badge to a repro or a plastic lense or gasket. They could indeed make better quality stuff nowadays - but not at the low volume/price point presently offered.

[pancho]

From memory the 1750 GT glass numbers on headlights for RHD are 08.xxx and the 2 liters are 05.xxx

[Craig_m67]

Be advised that here is also now Carello branded headlights (in addition to tail light lenses) being made by overseas companies. Sold as originals - but they are not.

Is there an obvious way to tell ?
I want NOS tail lamps and blinkers to go alongside my lamp jewellery
- in a box, too expensive to use

Agree with your other points and yes my part numbers are quoted from memory under the influence of a nice Pinot grig.
Check your model, your mileage may vary, if pain persists see a dr etc..

[pancho]

I'm yet to find a NOS set of duetto euro tail lights. Still looking for another customer too. I do have NOS duetto plexi covers - which are also often repro'd with poor quality stampings.

Easiest way to tell is that if it doesn't look the same as what your old originals look like then it isn't original.

Mmmmm I can hear that Pino calling.

[Davidm1600]

Here is a question I have been too afraid to ask in the past in case it is a stupid one but I might as well ask regardless. Why are some people so hung up on Carellos, headlight, taillights etc. I ask since on my gtv I have Hella H4s which offer superb lighting. I also note from my past experience that the Carellos headlights I had in my '69 AC Fiat 124 sport were complete rubbish' rusted out and with lighting power the equivalent to a limp candle. I threw them away and installed powerful Marchals which offered far superior lighting. I had the same thing with poor headlights in my 125 and 130. all Carellos.

So I guess is it purely about a concern re originality or am I missing something ?