GTV6 3L Upgrade Worth it?

[gtvsix86]

Hello in need of some advice,
I purchased a 3l motor on impulse from an Alfa 75 last year and have been saving my pennies to get it fitted and I have almost reached my target. My main reason for purchase was in search of not only more power but more liveliness off the mark. I'm no hoon by any stretch of the margin but I just want the GTV6 to drive as beautiful as it looks and 30years have past and the body and shape seem timeless but the power is starting to show its age.

My dilemma is that I took an ALFA GIULIETTA QV for a test drive and boy what a car! so Zippy and Lively. I couldn't believe how fast it was and it handled to me great around corners for a front wheel drive car I was literally blown away. Now don't get me wrong I don't expect my old GTV6 to be in the same league but it has put the doubts in my head about spending the money on my car in search for the holy grail when the GIULIETTA QV is almost there for me (Looks beautiful and has the performance to match).

My other dilemma is that my GTV6 is also a Grand Prix edition and I'm also having second thoughts of modifying it however I would be keeping the original motor.  So thoughts and advice please is the 3L upgrade in a GTV6 really worth it? Is the performance significant?  Does it breathe life into the car and give it the vigour of modern cars? Should I modify the Grand Prix or keep it original? All these questions are bouncing around in my head and I need some clarity from people who love these cars more than me and had the experience of this upgrade.  Or is the answer selling my car and buying the GIULIETTA QV please help.

Thanks in advance 

[martym00se72]

The answer to your dilemma is - it depends. What did you buy your gtv6 for? Do those reasons still hold true? I bought mine as a divorce present to myself with a promise to myself to some of the stuff I have always wanted to do. I am in the process of doing what you are asking about. Except one of the things I wanted was to do the bulk of the work myself. The car brings a smile to my face. Always. And my family accept that I won't sell it. Sure you can get cars that look good, go faster, rust less, more reliable etc. But what do you want from your car? The 3.0 will by all accounts make for a solid perfoing car. But there are still cars out there that are faster, handle better etc. But I don't care one bit. What do you care about?

[Duk]

Yeah, the 3 litre will deliver a reasonable torque gain, but what should give a very noticeable gain, is too have the flywheels lightened.
These things have soooooooo much rotating mass and getting rid of as much as you can will help them accelerate, especially in the lower gears.
And before anyone gets concerned about stalling the thing when driving away from a standing start on a hill, remember that these things have 2 flywheels and a tailshaft that is constantly attached to the engine. You'd be hard pressed to get the rotating mass down to that of a run of the mill RWD car.

[MD]

There are front wheel drive cars. Rear wheel drive cars and then there are transaxles. They all drive differently. It sounds to me that you haven't driven enough Alfas to know their characteristics and thereby haven't formed a preference. Perhaps you need to think that through before deciding on anything.

There have been rear wheel drive F1 Alfas. Transaxle F1 Alfas but never a front wheel drive F1 Alfa. Why is that?

In any case, if you spend the same amount of money on modifying and restoring a GTV6 as you would spend on the Giuliette QV, you would have yourself a good comparison.

[Victor Lee]

If the GTV6 GP is in very good/excellent condition, then I wouldn't touch it.  There aren't too many original GTV6s around, and as the last of the series, they will become more valuable.  Keep it original!  However, if the GTV6 GP is in ordinary condition, then of course a 3Lt upgrade is a good option.

Then if the pennies add up, get the Giulietta QV as your daily car and keep the GTV6 GP for the weekend.   

[L4OMEO]

I agree with the others here - decide what it is that pushes your buttons and let that lead your decision. But, your preferences should be determined by driving, not by the preconceived biases of others or any mildly amusing comparisons between road cars and F1 cars.

To me the biggest philosophical difference here isn't FWD v RWD, or 'real' Alfa v 'Fiat', but modern v historic. Do what you will to a GTV6 and it will still be an old car, for all the good and bad that insinuates. Equally, a new Giulietta will always lack qualities inherent with a car from the GTV6's era. What's right for you is exactly that, and anyone else's opinion really doesn't mean jack...

Or you could just go with Victor's suggestion and have one of each ...

[Beatle]

I reckon leave the GTV6 GP alone.  Get in and drive it, often and lots.   You don't get to really know a car until you've spent a long time in it and anyone who thinks a GTV6 doesn't have enough power either isn't driving it hard enough or will never be satisfied with any amount of horsepower.  You can always substitute HP with RPM......

I spent a lot of years thrashing my original Alfetta GTV.  It never needed any more power to be an absolute ball of (safe) fun.

I didn't spend a lot of quality time in the GTV6 (not many corners in the Top End) but never found it lacking, though it did feel a little more 'porky' than the Alfetta.

The trick is to change up a gear and strive to maintain the same RPMs in the same situations (e.g. maintain higher entry/exit/corner speeds)   .  That way you have to rely on more than the right foot and grip to hurry carefully.

[aggie57]

Me, I fall in the 3L swap camp unless the GP is a genuine original car in great condition, then I'd lean towards leaving it as is.  But if not, the difference is chalk and cheese and I do agree that a lightened flywheel is a great extra, as is a set of headers from Vin Sharp or similar.  It really makes the car get up and sing; when you drive a standard 2.5 after that you wonder why it doesn't go!

Sadly you will also then want a Twin Spark gearbox to sort out the ratios and gain a  LSD.  And some beefier torsion bars and rear springs to hold it down.  But then you have a really great car.......

[giulia_veloce]

I agree with Aggie57

I put a 3 litre in my GTV V6 84
What a difference
Only downfall is the 1st gear ratio.
I will in the near future put  twin spark gearbox ratios in it as I have done for a few customers.
The twin spark gear ratios give 1st gear longer legs and makes it more enjoyable,especially on take off from the lights.
The difference between a 2.5 and a 3 litre is amazing.
Amazing enough,that modifying the 3 litre engine is not a priority cause it goes fast enough.
GTV V6 3.0 with a twin spark gearbox is the way to go.
Suspension upgrade also,but the more you want it to handle= the more comfort you lose.
Usually after a great drive,I store the car for 6 months= too much fun,,and I need to keep my licence.

Robert

[gtvsix86]

Thank you for your advice guys and to answer your question martym00se72 why did I buy my gtv6 thinking about this has helped rekindle the lover affair I have with the model. I still remember being a teenager and dreaming of owning a gtv6 and every time I was in the car with my Dad growing up and I saw one on the road I told him, "Look at that Dad there's my dream car." Sitting in it is a like a time capsule to my past it's as if the car and I have an unmistakable connection. That being said we do have a love hate relationship when it lets me down and something electrical decides not to work or a clip or lever breaks off in my hand.
My biggest concern is that I'm a perfectionist and I fear that I'm always going to be chasing that little bit more out of the car i.e.: Twin Spark gearbox removing of some rust and the like and the dollar signs will just keep rolling up and up and before you know it a more modern sports car price tag doesn't seem that high.  That brings me then to L4OMEO's question of preference of Modern V Historic and I think I shouldn't make my decision on monetary values as how can you put a price on feelings and memories (to some extent).
Therefore I think I will drive my car for the rest of the week and see if there is still fire in the belly and go from there. I am leaning to doing the 3L upgrade just hoping if I go that way it is as good as everyone states.         

[four90s]

To give you some idea of the torque in a 3L, I can start in third gear (on the flat, of course) in mine.
It does run a 90 transaxle though, which has different gearing from the GTV6s.
(It has that as I got the car without engine or trans, so I used what I had lying around.)

Any time I take it for a drive, I do end up with a big smile on my face and I've got a bit of a fleet to choose from, 4cyl GTV, GTV6, 105 Coupe, 90 sedan, (also with a 3L) and another 90 converted to automatic.

Remember, Always Looking For Another.

Steve
Adelaide

[gtvsix86]

I forgot to mention all the good comments about how well the car drives with a 3L is really helping so keeping writting them in please 

[aggie57]

To give you some idea of the torque in a 3L, I can start in third gear (on the flat, of course) in mine.
It does run a 90 transaxle though, which has different gearing from the GTV6s.
(It has that as I got the car without engine or trans, so I used what I had lying around.)

Any time I take it for a drive, I do end up with a big smile on my face and I've got a bit of a fleet to choose from, 4cyl GTV, GTV6, 105 Coupe, 90 sedan, (also with a 3L) and another 90 converted to automatic.

Remember, Always Looking For Another.

Steve
Adelaide

Steve - interested in your last mentioned car, the auto 90.  What system did you install, the 75 one?

[four90s]

Yes, straight out of a 75. The 75 had been snotted in the front and had sat at the crash repairers for about 18 months. I got it for $400.

As they are both transaxle cars, everything just bolts up. I used the front trans mounts off the auto, as they are lower 'cause the bell housing on the auto is larger for the torque converter. I also added a larger trans cooler, which took a bit of fiddling, but it mounted in front of the a/c condenser fine.
As the 90s have an extra fan for the a/c, I used two of those mounting bolts as a spot to add the cooler.

I had to enlarge the opening in the tunnel for the selector, but no other cutting was required. The selector cover fits in the 90 console with a bit scraped off the sides. I even made a correct colour cover for the selector. (The 75 had the red instruments, whereas the 90 has green)

With the help of a mate, who is the electrical wizz, I then added a starter relay, connected to the selector cutout switch and a feed and light for the level indicator.

I didn't put the self-levelling in, as the 90s seem to sit a bit higher than the 75s (15" wheels as std) and it had been removed from the 75.
The 90 was a Super (analogue dash) and I think that helped with the speedo, although I had to put in a different sender, as the autos use the tachogenerator sender and all of the manuals (I think) use a Hall effect sender. The sender I used was out of either a late Giulietta or a 2.0L GTV.

Unfortunately, the car is now on the "To be scrapped" list, as it has really bad rust in the underneath of the plenum and fills up when it rains.

The car went quite well and can be driven "manually". And even gets reasonable mileage. I was holding it in the gears and revving to the redline on our 2011 economy run and still got better milage than another member driving a 166.

Happy to help with any other questions.

Cheers
Steve Adelaide.

[aggie57]

Very cool - thanks for the info.

I had an auto 75 in the late nineties (which incidently got written off by the subsequent owner also with a "snott in the front" after he drove into the back of a roof that had fallen off a truck on the Westgate Bridge....) and it was a really good car. 

What I always wondered was whether you could convert it to a 4-speed auto, and maybe swap in a 3-litre.  Always figured that would have made a good car great.

And apologies to gtvsix86 for hijacking your thread.  That happens on the forum