GTV6 3L Upgrade Worth it?

[MD]

I

forgot to mention all the good comments about how well the car drives with a 3L is really helping so keeping writting them in please 

I own a 12v 3 litre powered GTV6. It has been extensively modified but the engine if essentially standard. The mechanical modifications were made to cope well with the extra power provided by the 3 litre engine.

If I can do it, I will try to verbally convey what the conversion is like.

I have had both 105 and 116 cars in the past all them being of 2 litre capacity. In standard form, the 105 coupe is quicker than the 116 coupe as it is both lighter and the motor develops a little more power. (Not going to discuss modifications here because that will just ad to the confusion)

As for the 2.5V6, I have driven these as well. This is a very nice engine producing noticeably more power than its 2 litre cousin. However, the power increase over the 2 litre 4 engine is not dramatic and neither is the performance. Nevertheless, it is a sensible package given its suspension, brakes and gearing.

Now the installation of the 3 litre 12v engine does make a dramatic difference in power and acceleration. The difference is really noticeable in the upper gears because the engine has the grunt to overcome the increasing drag. It transforms the car into a contemporary sports car performer.

However, (and this must be one of your major considerations) only a fool would just increase power and disregard the totality of the chassis needs. If you decide to do this, your budget must cover all associated upgrades not only to make use of the power but do justice to it in the transaxle tradition in safety and performance.

Otherwise make good all that is needed on your current car and restore it to its former glory. A professionally restored vehicle is always well sought after should you ever decide to sell it. Knowing what I know now,that's what I would do but instead of fitting a 3 litre engine, I would keep the original one and supercharge it. That conversion would produce considerably more power than the naturally aspirated 3 litre and you would have the added charm of using that glorious little v6.

[gtvsix86]

Md what would you suggest for the other upgrades? (im always interested in advice from peole who have learnt from their mistakes) because your thoughts on spending my money in restoring what I already have is also another option I have been toying with

[MD]

Ooh, that depends on how deep your pockets are and what amount of passion you have for your GTV6. In my case, I spent $45 000 to restore and re-engineer my car to not only look like new but better than it ever was original using better materials and configurations to make this car deliver on what the looks might suggest that it could deliver, and it does. I got an Excel spredsheet on all the work done to it so it really isn't practical to list that here. That might seem like a lot of money but would I swap it for a new front wheel drive GTV? Only if you cut the right leg off first. **

To give you some more ideas, here are a few that you could think of to do and yet keep it "sort of original" of course, the purists would not agree but the sporting minded would immediately say, oooh yeah!!

The engine. The V6 is a brilliant engine in all its forms-front or rear drive. Smooth and revv happy.  Makes lots of torque to the point of breaking gearboxes if you want. So if you want to use your original engine, you could increase the bore size to 2.8litres, reconfigure compressions, camshafts, valve sizes, injectors etc and better internals and take the revv limit 2 000 rmp higher and you will have a naturally aspirated totally original looking howler.
Couple that to an improved transaxle like the one from a twin spark 75 plus a better driveshaft, lightended flywheels at both ends, revised suspension, bigger rotors and calipers ( preferably mounted out side at the rear), better radiator, alternator and so on. The detailed list gets quite long.

In terms of creature comforts, the air conditioning is impossible to make efficient in its original form. I spent
$2 500 completely redesigning the entire system including fitting inside dashboard ducting like modern cars have, Finally you have to do something radical as well to reduce the heat load. This requires a transparent air curtain behind the front seats which means the rear seats would not be used. This drastically reduces the cabin air volume and system copes real well anywhere in Oz.

Bit to think about there...

** For all you front wheel drive devotees. Please continue to enjoy your preference machines. I am not trying to take anything away from the way you enjoying your own cars. Peace.

[gtvsix86]

MD when I brought my motor off Paul from the Alpine Chapter he told me about his mate in Brisbane and told me he was the man when it came to modifying the GTV6. After hearing what lengths you have gone to my hat comes off for you mate you are a truly dedicated Alfetta man. You have given much to think about maybe even confused me a little more but with enthusiasts like yourself on this forum I'm sure advice is never too far away.  Thanks 

[MD]

It's my pleasure to help anyone who is an Alfa enthusiast and contrary to what may seem at first, I do try to assist where I have some knowledge worth sharing for ANY Alfa model.

The reality check is that all Alfas are great cars straight out of the box. It is only when you start to compare them against each other that certain traits favour certain preferences in what drivers want.

So welcome  to the brand Alfa and know that whatever you decide to do will ultimately result in a fine car if it is done in a tradesman like manner.

[aggie57]

It's my pleasure to help anyone who is an Alfa enthusiast and contrary to what may seem at first, I do try to assist where I have some knowledge worth sharing for ANY Alfa model.

The reality check is that all Alfas are great cars straight out of the box. It is only when you start to compare them against each other that certain traits favour certain preferences in what drivers want.

So welcome  to the brand Alfa and know that whatever you decide to do will ultimately result in a fine car if it is done in a tradesman like manner.

He he... ARNA, Alfa 6, 2300 ti, ....... just had to say! 

[L4OMEO]

Good posts MD.

Motoring nirvana comes in different forms for different people, a fact that's not always recognised on this forum so it's nice to see it happen here (especially from one of the acknowledged gurus). Personally the new Giulietta doesn't ring my bells, and neither is a 45k spend on a GTV6 likely to happen in my lifetime, but if either - or something else entirely - is your flavour of Alfa then good on you. Respect for putting your money and heart where your mouth is.

Peace back at ya 

Rory

[gtvsix86]

The conversion has been completed and I'm very happy with the transformation of the car. However quick question to those knowledgable people who have done this engine upgrade or something similar before, how do I fill out the change of vehicle details for VicRoads? Do I tell them it's a 3l? Do I tell them it's a 2.5l and see if I get away with it? Or do I tell them it's a manufacturers optional engine? (As South Africa had a 3l motor not sure if this qualifies) I'm trying to avoid getting a VASS approval certificate if I can and your help will be much appreciated.

[MD]

I am not familiar with the term "VASS" certificate. I am assuming it is a reference to a certified modification ?

As a rule, a vehicle that has been materially modified from the original such as in your case should be certified for its fitness to be registered and used on Australian roads. This is usually done by a private certifier who is usually a mechanical engineer familiar with ADR's . A vehicle that is modified but not declared may be unfit for registration and therefore would have no entitlement to be used on public roads. Anotherwords it is illegal. Furthermore, should such a vehicle be involved in an accident, the insurance cover could be made invalid due to this fact and therefore, you may be liable for all damages.

The procedure in Qld. is called "Blue Platting".

Ignore this advice at your own peril.

[four90s]

Seems easier here in SA.

I've sold my 3.0l 90 and to save the new owner any trouble, I filled out the form at motor rego to tell them I'd put another engine in. I had to supply the engine number and answer questions about capacity, induction etc..

I was told that it would take about 2 - 3 weeks and I would be called if more information was needed, but I just got the rego back after 10 days with the new number on. All done, no questions asked.

Good luck
Steve
Adelaide

[gtvsix86]

Sorry I should have made it more clear. There are a few options to tick on the form basically if it's a like for like motor there is no need for an engineer certificate. If it is a manufacturers option or a different size or type of motor with no structural changes then there is no need for an engineer certificate but if you change the motor that is something the manufacturer never offered or there were structural changes you need an engineer report. So my question is has anyone stated that it was manufacturers option due to the South African model and avoided getting an engineers certificate in Victoria? I'm not trying to break the law but just save spending money on an engineer if I don't have to.

[MD]

four90s

Your outcome has probably more to do with a lack of public service knowledge about these cars (and/or care)that eventually fell into the too hard basket.

gtvsix86
I appreciate your dilemma. Good vehicle manufacturers like Alfa Romeo invariably make upgrades to all sorts of engineering to an existing model when there is a power upgrade. An example is the bigger brakes and driveline components installed on the GTV6 when it was upgraded from the GTV2.0. All this for a relatively small increase of 500cc.

There is a precedence in the SA cars and you should do some research just what those modification upgrades are. Provided you have installed all the same essential upgrades, there is no reason why your conscience should not be clear.

[Al Campbell]

four90s

Your outcome has probably more to do with a lack of public service knowledge about these cars (and/or care)that eventually fell into the too hard basket.

While I'm one of those for doing the right thing legally even if just to cover yourself in case of an insurance claim, how hard is it to tell 12 Valve 2.5L from a 3L? The number of discussions I've seen on ALFA forums about trying to work out if a car has a 2.5 or 3 suggests to me that it 'aint easy. Would even an insurance assessor be able to tell if they suspect? 

Had a few frustrating times in the '80s with rotaries and Vicroads (or RTA as it was then) when it comes to "How many Cylinders?". The rego label used to list the number as "Rot".

[MD]

Al,

If the insurance company was on the ball, a simple check of the engine numbers would reveal a 3 litre unit. If it lived in a registered vehicle before, that number would already be on databases as such. A cinch.

[four90s]

Al and MD

MD, I agree about both the lack of knowledge at Motor Rego and the brake upgrade with the 3.0 litre. I've got the good old Volvo four spot calipers and will use 164 discs, to use the bigger swept area with those pads.

Al, with the engine identification, all the V6s I've looked at have had a number showing the capacity cast into the r/h head at the rear. (2.0, 2.5, 3.0)

Easier to see in a GTV or a front driver, hard to see in a 90 or 75.

I would think it would be a lot of trouble for someone to go to to swap heads, so I've always gone with those numbers.

Cheers
Steve
Adelaide