Mechanical clutch in TS conversion Sprint GTV

[DaveT]

With inspiration from Patrick's post re mechanical improvements to the GT, does anyone on here have any experience with keeping the mechanical clutch on a TS converted 105?

Reason I ask is I'm planning (hoping) to keep the mechanical F&S clutch on my Sprint GTV when I convert to the TS, using Alfaholic's lightweight steel 6 bolt mechanical clutch flywheel and one of their new 8 tooth starters.

I put a similar post up on the Alfa bb and all I got was tumble weeds and the sound of crickets...which I'm taking as a 'go ahead mate...poke yourself in the eye with a stick'.

Cheers
Dave

[LaStregaNera]

The poxy little early mechanical clutch is close to its limits on my warmed over 1750 - a TS will kill it in no short order.
You can use an adaptor on the mechanical throwout to use the beefier diaphragm clutches from the hydraulic throwout equipped cars, but you may find the clutch pedal a bit on the heavy side.
The early coil sprung clutches just don't have the clamping force to handle the torque of the 2l.
I have no experience with the uprated clutch that alfaholics sell for the early cars.

[DaveT]

Thanks Ben, I had a feeling you might be the man in the know on this!

So it looks like my tight arsery would come back to bite me in the arsery, if I kept my current clutch and just stuck in AH's lightweight flywheel.

Other option, as you say, is going with the Alfaholics Full Race Paddle Clutch Kit, which according to AH is quite streetable and currently about $1625AU for flywheel, pressure/friction plate and a 'more complex bearing carrier'.

Which isn't too bad considering a standard F&S mech clutch kit and lightweight flywheel is currently about $1040AU.

Or I just give in and go with the hydraulic set up, which (thanks to Scott and his marvelous spreadsheets!) looks like it would be in the $1000 vicinity...and requires finding a few decent 2nd hand items and a fair bit of fiddling to get it all set up.

Hmmm, so many options...looks like a call to the AH boys is in order.

[pancho]

Dave - whatever you do - map out your options and know the small details before you buy anything. I only found out about the mech v hydraulic pedal changeover by chance and I'm thankful to Dave for the initial flag about it. Then Scott confirmed it for me.

[Davidm1600]

All I can add which is 2/5ths of you know what, is that my brother converted his clutch over from mechanical to hydraulic in his Giulia 1300Ti when he upgraded to a 1600 or was it a 1750 engine, and it wasn't all that complicated.  The expense minimal and no way the sort of $$ being talked here, but (a) he is a complete tight arse and (b) is pretty handy with mechanical stuff and had access to plenty of spare parts.  Alfaholics didn't exist when he did this.

[DaveT]

Dollars for a few of the items required for the hydraulic conversion I would think have gone up a bit over the past decade or two. And the list of things required isn't a short one and some of the items might be tricky and/or expensive to pick up in good nick these days hence the 1k vicinity figure seems about right to me.

Finding a decent pedal set or reconditioning a not-so-decent set and finding locally (or + postage) a 2ltr flywheel, plus lightening would have to be significant contributors...not to mention the clutch kit itself.

And then there's the extra buggery of fitting it all... plus it's a further hindrance to converting the car back to original...not that that particularly bothers me...I'm really just looking for ways to justify fancy shiny bits from Alfaholics.

Here's the list of items required, as far as I know it, to convert to hydraulic (with thanks again to Scott):

- Clutch fluid reservoir
- Hard line from reservoir over tunnel and down to brake/clutch master
- Clutch master cylinder, and longer bolts to mount it on other side of brake master
- A pedal set from a later hyd clutch car (you can use the mech clutch pedal set – but the mechanical advantage is different – will make the hydraulic clutch feel very heavy)
- Hydraulic bellhousing, release fork, slave cylinder
- Release bearing
- Weld small tang on crossmember
- Hard line from clutch master to tang on crossmember
- Flexible brake line from tang to slave cylinder
- 2L flywheel - lightened
- Clutch kit (plate, press, bearing)

But I'm still happy to be dissuaded or persuaded in either direction.

Dave

[DaveT]

So I spoke to Max last night and he confirmed that even with a new F&S clutch kit the standard mechanical clutch set up would be right on the limit with the TS.

However he also confirmed that their Full Race Paddle Clutch Kit and flywheel can be used with the mechanical clutch set up and behaves just like a normal 'street' clutch.

So this is the way I'll be going, more expensive, but all new, a lot less hassle and can cope with 200+ hp if ever I get that far.

[pancho]

Unsprung? Mmmm nice crisp flat shifts but atrocious in traffic and don't bother trying to reverse park.

Maybe go with their  fast road/rally kit or support local sponsors with real race and road tested products from PACE perhaps. Save on shipping too - just options to consider.

[DaveT]

Ah yes you're right, my bad, Max would've been recommending the Fast Road/Rally version for a predominantly road car, which according to the website:

'As per above (Full Race) kit but using a special high performance organic friction material applied to a sprung drive plate centre. This kit combines the superb fast engine response only possible with a race style clutch, with the everyday driving practicalities of an OE fitment organic clutch. This kit has been developed specifically for our Alfa application and we have been testing it for the complete summer in Andrew's TI Super-R. We are thrilled with the results, it is the perfect balance for fast road/trackday cars and rally cars.

This kit comes complete and is ready to bolt directly to your Alfa Romeo. Flywheel available for both 6-bolt and 8-bolt crank applications and for both cable and hydraulic clutch bellhousing fitments.  These flywheels use small ring gears to keep the weight down so you will need to use an 8-tooth starter motor with them.'

[AikenDrum105]

Before I forget *again*  - Dave,  here's a simple mod to reduce the judder in reverse you can get with the mech clutch...

http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/sedan-1962-1977/35521-super-clutch-judder-fix.html


Cheers,

[DaveT]

Thanks Scott for making it a bit more complicated...again!

I was planning to go with a later type bush, a lot less 'see through' than the early ones. But to be honest I never experienced any judder in reverse even with the early bush. Wonder if for some reason reverse judder is more prevalent in the sedans than coupes...extra weight...longer wheelbase...less stylish 

[ItalCarGuy]

less stylish

Oi! wash you mouth out with soap!

[AikenDrum105]

We all get there in the end Derek,  he is but a young grasshopper - new to the nuances of the sedan - yet to be seduced by their inveigling obfuscoscity.   

One day, Dave,  we will assimilate you.     


Careful with the later bushes BTW - the central tube is offset  (and in the later cars the gearbox crossmember is made to accomodate for that and keep the gbox level)      It's not a huge amount so not a major issue.   

Or I could be remembering that wrong and parading my ignorance ....   I know Derek and I had a lot of discussion about in the dim distant past...  (thereby sharing blame for zero-recall)   

[DaveT]

Hey if anyone's going to parade there ignorance around here it's going to be me alright.

Looks like I was wrong again, the early mount is apparently the stronger mount. There's a later mount in my gbox at the moment, which threw me.

Looks from these pics that the offset is the same for both....?

http://www.alfaholics.com/2010/07/gearbox-rear-mount/

http://www.alfaholics.com/2010/07/gearbox-rear-mountbush-for-105-also-suitable-fo/

[AikenDrum105]

Excellent drawing of the later hydraulic one here.   



www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/gt-1963-1977/193380-gearbox-mount-orientation.html