When is an Alfa Romeo not an Alfa Romeo?

[poohbah]

No problem Oz, I think Duk makes at least one good point - about the problem of conveying sarcasm in written posts!

Each to his own I say. Personally, I'd be quite happy to go for a spin in a Alfa-MX5 love match. That would make a pretty good recipe I reckon. And I'd stil call it an Alfa.

[aggie57]

You mean like the Audi aventador, gallardo etc... What shockers they are. Cross pollination never works.

I'm with oz.

Real lemons the lot...  !  Seriously though, if Fiat followed the same principles GTV6 ==> ES30 (but pretty) ==> 968 competitor ===> Boxster/Cayman competitor.  Or Alfetta ===> post Alfetta sports sedan with front engine, RWD, 6-speed manual, etc.....oh sorry, that's an M3.

[poohbah]

Yes please, gimme a fresh take on the GTV6!

As for the M3, I'm afraid I'll never really care how good it is. Anal teutonic efficiency, but bugger all character and no arm waiving...

[oz3litre]

I am more than happy with my GT 3.2. I haven't driven it today and it is calling to me as we speak. I said to my wife the other day, "Who needs a Ferrari when you have one of these?" I don't think they sound as good as my Busso with its big bore cat-back exhaust and the styling inside and out is just as beautiful. When you include the fact that you can carry five adults and loads of stuff in the boot with or without folding the seats down, the GT is pretty hard to beat.

[hammer]

Free speech is a pillar of our society but dead set this thread makes us look like a bunch of back biting old farts. We all love Alfas and that's why we join our state branch of AROCA. So let's stop running down the Alfas that at least half of our members own.

I've owned Alfas from each of the past five decades and they all put a smile on my face.

[Duk]

So let's stop running down the Alfas that at least half of our members own.

Maybe some ground rules need to be established for these kind of threads.

Rule 1: Any question can be asked in an open and public manor.
Rule 2: Freedom of speech is available to all.
Rule 3: Don't go having an opinion that is different to 'at least half' of the crowd...............

You can choose whether I'm being sarcastic or not.............

[McAnnik]

FYI oz3litre,  BUGATTI made his own very distinctive nuts and bolts,but that was a long time ago.Probably the only car company to do so!...........

[MD]

As far as I can see, this debate has been done over many times before. Why is a transaxle 924 Porche any less of a Porche than a 911? Because the 911 fraternity deem it so? Why is a front engined Ferrari less of a Ferrari than a mid engined one?

There is a tendency to overlook the obvious here. All Alfas will provide a very special character of communication with the driver commensurate with the period the vehicle was built in. I simply call it a Connection. I have driven plenty of European, Asian, Aussie and some Yank cars of all ages. Plenty of them go well and some go bloody hard. Notwithstanding,typically they do not make the same Alfa Connection. I get this same connection with all types of Alfas that I have driven. This is definitely the identifying character that makes Alfa special in my opinion.

Finally, I just want to say all Alfas will provide the driver a satisfying experience in the driver's seat without exception whilst they are being driven lawfully and within legal constraints. However, the cohesion of this condition starts to fragment once these same cars are asked to perform at their limits. It is then and only then that some of the arguments presented here are justifiable and self evident.

Realistically however, how many of you on a day to day basis drive your car on the limits and have stayed out of jail for any substantial period? It doesn't happen folks and nor should it happen if we are being responsible.

On the other hand, if you do have total convictions about a format, get crackin with the spanners and meet your fellow gladiators on the track and make your point there. No typing skills required.

[TFJ100]

To me, there is nothing that fizzes my Coke about the front wheel drive Alfa's. Nothing that says "DRIVE ME!!". I get excited by the technical details of a car, to the point where, when I see a transaxle chassis Alfa with standard front suspension geometry, I just lower my eyes and shake my head ................... 'cause I know that the cars work MUCH better when the geometry is corrected (well, made much better than standard). 
FWD, no matter how much effort that is put into it, will always be an accountant driven compromise.
The looks are all purely subjective and for me, it has very little to do with it. The 156 looks nice. The FWD GTV/6, I think looks like a Honda Accord.

I agree that all of this is purely personal. But no one in there right mind can legitimately expect Alfa Romeo to take on the BMW M cars with a front wheel drive chassis!

Back in the day, the 156 GTA lapped The 'Ring 2% slower than an M3. But if you add a Q2, 330mm brakes and decent coilovers to the GTA, I think you could easily make up that 2%. So, I think the removes the argument about whether the GTA has the performance of the M3. There is a question mark over whether you would enjoy punting the GTA around a racetrack more than an M3, and that is where I think it falls down. Much as I love my GTA, I think balancing a good-handling RWD car around a track is more fun.

On the open road at more normal speeds, I suspect a GTA could be equally as much fun as an M3 - maybe more if the M3 only comes alive at high speeds (never driven one so I don't know).

I wouldn't say no to an M3, but am very happy being a GTA owner.

Torben

 

[oz3litre]

Back in the day, the 156 GTA lapped The 'Ring 2% slower than an M3. But if you add a Q2, 330mm brakes and decent coilovers to the GTA, I think you could easily make up that 2%. So, I think the removes the argument about whether the GTA has the performance of the M3. There is a question mark over whether you would enjoy punting the GTA around a racetrack more than an M3, and that is where I think it falls down. Much as I love my GTA, I think balancing a good-handling RWD car around a track is more fun.

On the open road at more normal speeds, I suspect a GTA could be equally as much fun as an M3 - maybe more if the M3 only comes alive at high speeds (never driven one so I don't know).

I wouldn't say no to an M3, but am very happy being a GTA owner.

Torben

That's very interesting. I certainly think it is a rash generalisation to say front wheel drive can't compete with rear wheel drive. The old 33s do very well on the track, despite being a pretty basic set up compared with our GTs and GTAs. Nobody can argue with the fact that the old Minis were giant killers against rear wheel drive competition back in the day, again with a crude set up compared to modern cars. A guy took my son and I for a test drive in his 156 GTA before I bought the GT and he absolutely flattened it on the windy back roads of the Southern Vales where he lived and we felt like were were being nailed to the doors. The tyres didn't even squeak and that car had stock suspension and diff with 330 mm brakes. My GT has KW coil overs, a strut brace and a Quaife diff, so I think it can well and truly hold its own.

[Duk]

Alfa Romeo?

[MD]

If there is any doubt and to settle any argument, I'll take it.
Just to be sure it's not a lemon, does it come with a road worthy ?

[Duk]

If there is any doubt and to settle any argument, I'll take it.

I am curious as to how far the faithful will go in order to continue their following of the marque.
It seems to me that the name has become more of a tuning house than a creator of cars.

Justifications that "no car manufacturer creates all of their own parts............" has gone, in my mind, too far.
Comparing the influence of, for example, an alternator to the influence the chassis or engine on the true being of the car, seems like a very misguided one.
IE: I'm pretty sure an alternator (or any other incidental component of a car) has very little to do with the true origins and character of the car, but the chassis or engine definitely does.

These days, an Italian styling house's body stuck onto ABC's chassis, using XYZ's engine with maybe some in house fiddling of the suspension, all, apparently, equal an Alfa Romeo.
Like I said, it seems more like a tuning house than a car manufacturer.

Back when Triple Eight Racing lost their factory support from Ford, they openly said that they didn't really care, they'd just re-skin THEIR CAR (with Holden-esk panels), used the other (Chev based) engine and carry on racing (and winning!!!)!
The outside didn't matter, because the inside stayed the same. The inside remained the true being of the Triple Eight Racing car.

[Garibaldi]

Some great comments and opinions guys. I guess we will never all agree on this one. So where to from here. Do we all go out and buy pre Fiat takeover Alfas as they are the purest or do we accept that the good old days are gone and enjoy the cars we have now? More importantly given the brands heritage which direction should Fiat - Chrysler take with future models? 

[poohbah]

Well Garibaldi, I think we have a schism in the ranks.

I suspect some folks out there secretly wish this was a historical society (probably with a secret handshake to get in) rather than a club or forum for all comers.

I like Alfas, and I don't care whether they're old, new or in between. And anyone else who likes 'em too is ok by me, whatever their chariot of choice may be.  But I don't know one end of a spanner from the other ... I must just be shallow...

As to your question about the future, I'll put it this way.

To me, seeing the Alfa name continue on, even under the umbrella of Fiat-Chrysler, is still preferable to seeing it disappear because it can't survive on its own. And as others have pointed out - changing  ownership structures over the years is exactly how it has managed to survive and stay in continuous production for so many decades.

That's the thing about great marques - they survive.   

Not every Alfa built - past or present - is a "classic". So what.

But there is one thing for certain - you can't make the next classic if you are out of business.

No 8C. No 4C. No Disco Volante. No Alfa-MX5 love-child. Or whatever comes next.

And that would be a crying shame.