Lowering a 84 guilietta

Started by Alfapride, October 03, 2013, 08:33:38 PM

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Alfapride

Hello all just wondering if anyone has had experience with lowering a 84 guilietta? Can anyone recommend a sensible height reduction for the front and rear? The rear is rather high from factory - is there a reason for this design or can it be sensibly lowered? Any thoughts or suggestions welcome thanks!
Alfa 33 16v
Alfa 116 Giulietta
Alfa 116 Alfetta GTV
Alfa MY2004 147 TI
Alfa MY19 Giulia Veloce

DHDamo

Lowered my 83 Giulietta back in the day (b4 I went crazy and traded it for bottlecaps  :'( Don't have specs, but dropped it a fair bit (will see what I can find). It made a huge and positive difference. Keep you posted if I find anything.
Now:
'84 GTV
'12 Nissan Navara D22

Then:
'83 Giulietta ('01-'06)

Alfapride

Thanks DHDamo....I should mention I am planning to use the same original wheels just upgarding the shocks to bilstein b4 OEM replacements. I normally like to keep cars 'original' as much as possible but the giulietta does have a lot of gap between the arch and wheels which isn't seen in other models from the same era such as the sud, 33 or gtv.
Alfa 33 16v
Alfa 116 Giulietta
Alfa 116 Alfetta GTV
Alfa MY2004 147 TI
Alfa MY19 Giulia Veloce

DHDamo

Yeah it made such a difference to performance and looks. Even with the stock wheels, it'll look great. I put konis on mine but they only just won the race but were excellent. Just put Bilsteins on my 4b tho and love them too. Enjoy - wish I'd kept mine.
Now:
'84 GTV
'12 Nissan Navara D22

Then:
'83 Giulietta ('01-'06)

hammer

Alfapride,

I haven't lowered a Giulietta (yet) but have lowered a few Alfetta and 75 sedans. Just try 25mm to begin with. Talk to King Springs about a set of lowering springs to take it down 25mm (they're only about $250) in the rear and have someone who is experienced in the Alfetta/Giulietta platform wrestle the torsion bars for you. It'll look good and won't be dragging its arse over speed bumps etc.

Cheers,

Brent

Duk

Going too low at the front will give the car an even slower turn in response and more understeer.
Yes it will look better, but the cars handling characteristics will be worsened by lowering it too far at the front.

My 1st suggestion will be to liberally and repeatedly spray a really good quality penetrating spray on each of the 4 sets of splines to help release any hold that surface rust will have.
Read Greg Gordan's article (though it seams some photos have been mixed up :o ): http://www.hiperformancestore.com/AlfaSuspension.htm

Alfapride

thanks everyone for the advice!

Duk - Do you think 25mm is suitable for the front? Are you saying that lowering the car slows the steering response?

Alfa 33 16v
Alfa 116 Giulietta
Alfa 116 Alfetta GTV
Alfa MY2004 147 TI
Alfa MY19 Giulia Veloce

Duk

Quote from: Alfapride on October 04, 2013, 01:52:24 PM
thanks everyone for the advice!

Duk - Do you think 25mm is suitable for the front? Are you saying that lowering the car slows the steering response?

The steering rate itself is the same as it always is. What changes is the cars ability to actually change direction, so it's response to changes in direction is reduced.
It's an inevitable function of lowering these cars, the roll centre height goes down further than the centre of gravity. So effectively, the front will roll more, the outside front wheel will move more into positive camber during cornering and the outside front tyre will also support more of the lateral weight transfer than it use to.
The end result is that the car will understeer more.

Definitely lower her, she'll look much better and 25mm is not much. But don't expect her to handle better as a result.

DHDamo

But upgrading 30 year old springs and putting in new Bilsteins is sure to improve handling? I found that shorter, stiffer springs reduced body roll a lot and increased general corner stability/tracking when I did mine. Just my 2bob, the lowering will improve looks if nothing else while shocks and springs have to improve handling?
Now:
'84 GTV
'12 Nissan Navara D22

Then:
'83 Giulietta ('01-'06)

Duk

Quote from: DHDamo on October 04, 2013, 03:44:34 PM
But upgrading 30 year old springs and putting in new Bilsteins is sure to improve handling? I found that shorter, stiffer springs reduced body roll a lot and increased general corner stability/tracking when I did mine. Just my 2bob, the lowering will improve looks if nothing else while shocks and springs have to improve handling?

Absolutely!
Buuuuuuuuuuuttttt(!), while replacing old and invariably worn out components on what are, old and (invariably) worn out cars, will get better results, imagine getting thosd better results with a correct approach to lowering and upgrading the car!  ;)  ;D 8)

But I'm getting way off topic.

And I loved my '80 Giulietta!  8)

Alfamania

Alfapride- just take it to the dealer!  ;) hahaha
Alfa GT 3.2
Maserati Gransport
Alfa 75 V6 3.0
BMW 318i e36
Saab 9000cs
Mazda Rx7 13B Extend port -Turbo
Ford XE ESP 5.8
Mazda RX-4 Coupe 13B Extend Port

Al Campbell

The issue with lowering the front is not lowering it too far.

My understanding is what comes in to play is the angle of the A-arms. Mind you I'm no expert on ALFA's, this is just what I picked up reading around.

At stock height from the axle stub to the chassis, the A-arms point upwards []/  \[]. If you project an imaginary line from each A-arm, the point where they intersect is more or less the roll-point and maybe not far from the centre of gravity.

With the torsion bars you can probably lower the front until the oil pan sits on the road  ;). It's very easy to lower it to the point where from the axles to the chassis, the A-arms point downwards  []\  /[] . This puts the roll point somewhere near or below the road surface. Yet the C of G is still where it was now much further away from the point about which the car rolls when cornering. Result - the car rolls more. That's what I understand anyway. I'm sure there are plenty of guys around who will explain it better, or explain where i got it wrong.

The suggestions I found were to lower it to the point where the A -arms point slightly upwards, to allow for some compression (bumps, braking, over-weight passenger). Also at that point, slightly wider wheels (say off a 156) won't rub on the inside of the guards).

If you want to lower the front radically, then the best thing is supposed to be off-set knuckles/dropped axles Shoot I can't remember what they are called :P. Thingies with offset axle stubs so you don't change the angle of the A-arms. $$$ of course.

Sorry if I've just muddied the water here.

When I got my car, it was too low.  A arms pointed way down, tyres rubbed the guards on moderate lock, oil-pan scraped on any speed hump. I actually raised mine a little until the A-arms where flat.

Also help on this site:

http://alfagtv6.com/phpBB3/viewforum.php?f=10&sid=4b8194b38304ed486f1a512aca122f09







Alfamania

Alfapride- I suggest you dont touch the front! otherwise you will ruin the geometry...you remember how my 75 was when it was lowered. Anyway, the only thing you may do is get lowered king springs in the back and it should drop by around 300mm. Take it to the scientist  ;)
Alfa GT 3.2
Maserati Gransport
Alfa 75 V6 3.0
BMW 318i e36
Saab 9000cs
Mazda Rx7 13B Extend port -Turbo
Ford XE ESP 5.8
Mazda RX-4 Coupe 13B Extend Port

Alfapride

Thanks everyone for the tips - sounds like just a lowering of the rear is required across the board with shorter springs...I agree with Alfamania that lowering the front too much may throw out the geometry eluding to other comments above so much appreciate all the advice here!
Alfa 33 16v
Alfa 116 Giulietta
Alfa 116 Alfetta GTV
Alfa MY2004 147 TI
Alfa MY19 Giulia Veloce

Al Campbell

Ahh don't give up on the front yet. The good thing about the front is lowering is completely reversible.  No new springs are whatever are required. You are basically just removing the torsion bar, turning it a little bit and putting it back in. Just have to deal with hard to budge parts after 30 years or so. Don't like it? Dropped it more that you expected? Put it back where it was.

If you read up on the Greg Gordon explanation, you can change the height by increments of 1.5mm. Also have a good search on the transaxle web-site. This discussions has happened lots of times in the past. The explanation of what happens is a bit mind twisting, but the first time I did it, it all came clear. The key is that the splines on  each end of the bars are different, so when you move one end by 1 whole spline/tooth, the other end moves by slightly more than one (or less). Like 2 gears/cogs on a common shaft with different numbers of teeth. Move and replace the chassis end and the A-Arm will have to be moved slightly to insert the splines. A common mistake is not aligning the A-arm right the ride height changes dramatically. i.e 1.5mm change per spline. So 14 splines x 1.5 = 21mm drop. You try that, and find the cars dropped by maybe 70mm! Just means the A-arm end wasn't re-inserted correct. You can't tell until you put the car back on the ground and it's resting on it's springs. Sounds complicated I know (it did my head in) but mark the bars, chassis & A-arms where they are before you start.  Didn't work?  - put it back! - You read stories about guys getting the cars lowered at non ALFA workshops and getting weird results like that.

How hard is it to do? Well - you may need a ball joint separating fork (I managed with a large screwdriver without causing to much damage). And a couple of high tensile bolts & hard washers to extract the torsions bars. Maybe a hammer and drift if the torsion bars are reluctant to budge. My car had been professionally lowered in the past by an ALFA mechanic who had done a real good job with the anti-seize. So my bars came out with out too much trouble. If you do the front, use anti-seize yourself. You also need real good axle stands & wheel ramps. Compressed suspension contains a lot of energy. This is not something to play with while under the car only on a jack.   After working it all out for the first time on the one side. I did the second side in half an hour flat. Raised the car by the planned 20mm spot on as best as I could measure. On the down side that's how I found my sills at the jacking points were rusted out (99.9 % are). But don't let me talk you in to something you are worried about doing.

Why am I saying all this? Well if you want to improve you handling, replace your old dampers and all the old rubber bits you can all around. That's the first thing. As good tyres as you can afford. Drive it a bit to see what it's like a couple of weeks or whatever so you are familiar with the change. Then drop the front a small bit say 15mm and drive it some more. See if you can tell any difference. Stuffed if I noticed any change when raised mine 20mm.

Hunt around the websites and read some more. :)

One theory is that for ideal geometry on a 116, the front should be 25mm higher than the rear.