12/1983 Alfasud ti QV Barn find (kinda)

[Mike]

Thanks all, I really appreciate the comments.

I went into the sud purchase knowing I was chasing revs and NA, carbied fun.  I think the 1700 fits the bill, and I am keen to head down the 1.7 path...fuel consumption has never concerned me as I do not do long distances.

I have the hydralic 1.7 from last of the sud sprints.  From what I can read, it would seem that people shy away from this version of the cabrie engine.  Why is that?  Is it a limit in power thing or availability of parts/reliability?  All rebuilds cost monay I want to make sure I spend it on the right power plant.  I do also have a 16v engine, which I have considered putting carbs on.

[colcol]

The first 200 1700 motors in Australia in the series 2, 33 were all solid lifters, and this was because the factory had the solid lifters sitting around and wanted to use them up as the hydraulic lifters were not ready yet, i know when i was chasing a 1700, i had to wait years to get a solid lifter version, for the warmed over cams i was going to use, and the cams were for solid lifters, which were different from hydraulic, the hydraulics have a little ramp that pumps up the lifters...or so i am told.
The carby engines put out more power than the injected engines, the injected engines have better fuel economy and they pollute less and last longer, the carby engines waste fuel and are constantly washing the oil off the bores of the engine causing ring and cylinder wear.
The cooling system in the Suds and 33's were designed for about 65 hp and a 800 kilo body in 1972, same cooling system 15 years later and they are trying to keep cool 115 hp and a 950 kilo body, and it was marginal to say the most, when the 16 valve came along in 1990, Alfa by this time had been absorbed into the Fiat group and had some money, so the engine bay was redesigned for the 16 valve 33, with a bigger radiator, to cope with a 1,000 kilo and 130 hp, the radiator was at the front of the radiator support.
My 1500 105 hp 33 with airconditioning struggles to cope in traffic on hot days, sometimes in the summer i remove the thermostat, the radiators in these cannot be made any bigger, as there is no room at the sides or top, you can't go forward and make it thicker, the only thing is you might be able to make it thicker towards the engine and use a thinner electric thermomatic fan, Colin.

[Mike]

OK, so there is no real dissadvantage to using the hydraulic lifter 1700, other than sourcing the correct cams, should I want to upgrade?  Sounds promising.

As for radiator, Perhaps the new core designs are slighly better than the old rads?  Or perhaps you can use a tripple pass and as you say thicker rad with thinner fan.  I have used SPAL fans to great effect, but you can not skimp on fan as they need a good motor to pass the volume of air you would need when compared to a larger, deeper fan.  Having said that, the Sud fan is nothing special, so should be able to imrove that no problem..it's all money of course.

[colcol]

There is no problem using hydraulic lifters, just make sure your cams are ground for hydraulic lifters and that the cams are straight within .001 inch, other wise the engine won't idle properly.
I am just talking standard radiators that are made by valeo that go straight in, a custom made radiator with a tripple pass may be a better proposition, but then it will spoil the look of the original radiator being in the car.
I have a SPAL radiator cooling fan on my 33 supplementing the standard fan, it is mounted on the passenger side between the grill and the radiator and blows rather than drawing air through the radiator, Colin.

[Frank Musco]

There is no disadvantage in just doing an engine swap and modifying the exhaust and that's it, go no further, but if you go further you will find that half a job doesn't work, even though things look the same, many parts are not interchangeable.

I currently run a 1700 hydraulic lifter with 40 IDF's in my Sud Sprint Veloce with a baffled sump fitted. The gearbox is from an 84 33, as well as the outboard solid front brakes which allowed me to fit the correct exhaust for the engine. Disliked the inboards for many reasons so they had to go. Left the engine standard as they go fast enough and stay super reliable and efficient. Also the engine being standard doesn't overheat. Daily driven a Sprint for years and have never had one overheat, must be lucky I guess. Always had the original aluminium tube radiator. I got my engine by wrecking a whole 33 so had all the parts to do the job in one hit without looking for bits and pieces, so gearbox, exhaust, drive shafts, brakes, Front and rear suspension, rear brake proportioning valve with matching master and brake lines and clips to hold everything together and make it look original, were all on the one car which makes the job easier. One thing leads to another, so how far down the rabbit hole do you want to go? For example, while I was planing my engine swap, I also had a 16v 33 to steal parts from, so I fitted the power steering which was one of the best things I've ever done to a Sudsprint, although part of the job involved tapping a hole and thread in the top of the 1700 8V engine and cutting the firewall, which most people wouldn't dare attempt, so again how far do you want to go?, but my car is fricken awesome !!!

Having said all that, I'm currently building a 16V engine for this car which I hope to have fitted by the end of this year. Again, it's not just an engine swap as I'm going to fit all the electronics which go with this engine. Although, if you had inlet manifols to fit 40 IDF's to this engine plus a distributor from the 8V's engine, should make this engine swap more attractive, and being a 16V engine it's going to be very bloody FAST !!! and sound awesome!!!

[Mike]

I also wrecked a 16v Alfa 33 and kept computer, struts, power steering, fuel system etc etc.  I think I like the simplicity of the carbied 1700, but 16v is of course an attractive proposition.  I have too many projects as it is, so my focus for now has been on making it the best drive it can be without modifying too much.  Then enjoy it for a while, while I educate myself on smart mods.  All the suggestions here have been very helpful and will go into the decision making process.  I am with you, opening an engine and modifying propoerly is an expensive slippery slope, and I am doing that on a couple of cars at the same time so have to be realistic.

Killing me not driving the thing, once back from O/seas, its down the the pits to see if I can get her on the road and enjoy it for what it is.

[Frank Musco]

Looks like you have some very fast cars in your shed, and realistically the Sud isn't going to be one of them. So considering how original the car is, I suggest keeping the mods to a minimum. Bolting in the 1700 8V engine, keeping the original gearbox and inboard brakes and have some fun with it. Keep the engine standard because they're fast enough, just baffle the sump!!! If you have the exhaust which came with the 1700 8V, have a go at modifying those pipes to fit around the inboard brakes. Tune it properly and it will purr like a cat, and don't be afraid to rev it to 6500 and then change gear. The car will be reliable and heaps of fun, it might actually surprise you.

[Mike]

That sounds like a plan to me.  I agree, I 'could' chase silly power in it, but for what?  Better to get a reliable, solid package that looks like the factory intended.  Good, that's sorted.

[colcol]

When you put a 1700 into a 33, you can get stronger C.V. joints, with Suds, you get 1500 C.V. joints that are prone to breaking, due to the fact that they accelerate and brake as well, with the 33, they only have to accellerate, don't know if you can get stronger C.V. joints for the Sud???, Colin.

[Sportscar Nut]

Mike

Col & Frank's comments are wise. My Sud has the same setup as Frank's - standard 1.7 hydraulic lifters 40mm carbies with baffled sump but have kept the inboard brakes so had the exhaust headers fabricated. Run 1.7IE gearbox internals as the TiQV has the tallest gearing of all Sud's & 33's (& 5th is basically an over drive).

Never had any cooling issues with standard radiator but as mentioned, pistons are hard to find for the 1.7's for engine rebuilds. Boxer engines are difficult to get a lot more Hp w/o expensive work or strapping on a turbo so as Frank suggested, would leave standard. Can get a few Hp's from modifying the air cleaner as they are horribly restrictive and ditto for the crap factory mufflers (have seen 3hp ATW's on Beninca's dyno from just the bloody rear muffler!). So suggest ensure engine breaths cleanly and tuned properly and you should get many years of driving pleasure!

Cheers
Paul

[Mike]

All good advice.  so to clarify, if I use by 16v EFI box, that will bolt to my 1.7 hyd. carb engine and then bolt straight into the sud?  Then just need custom exhaust?

I am not too stressed about pistons, I think if I pulled the engine down I would raise comp with custom pistons.

[Frank Musco]

This is where you have to be careful. Most parts, even though they look the same, don't all bolt together for different reasons.

If you use the 16V efi box, you then have a box which you cannot bolt the inboard brake calipers to, and the output flanges are different. If you fit this box, you then have to change most of the front suspension so you can use the 16V drive shafts. The front hubs differ alot from inboard to outboard brake setup. This is what I meant in the earlier post about going down the rabbit hole. Also 'some' of the inboard brake gearboxs have the 4.11:1 diff ratio, and closer gear ratios, which is what you want to make the car feel zippy as oppsed to the 16v efi which most likely is a 3.89:1 ratio. Does this sound correct Colin ? Please let me know as I'm drawing from experience only. Then there are things like front brake hose brackets you need to fit and many other things to make this option work well and be safe.

Also as Colin pointed out, the 1.5 drive shafts are weaker/smaller than 1700 shafts. So fitting 1700 shaft does seem attractive, although requires changing the front hubs and most of the front end. Also I've found the shaft length is a problem, where for example you fit 1700 8V hyd motor plus 16V gearbox, then you go to fit the 16V shafts and they are somewhere around 2mm short. Then you start swearing alot!, So you need  2mm spacers between gearbox output flanges and shafts to allow full suspension droop/travel or shafts will destroy themselves. there's also shaft bolt length and thread differences to add to your agony, down the rabbit hole further!

Paul's setup is very attractive. I like how he has swapped the gearbox internals and I suggest this is the way to go, depending on your preference to diff and gear ratios. For example, I would remove the gearbox sump and check the diff ratio, if I found a 4.11:1 diff, I wouldn't touch the gearbox and just fit the 1700 8V hyd engine and job done because I like that diff ratio. With respect to the 1.5 inboard drive shafts, unless you are going to race the car, they are fine. Just keep the gearbox flange bolts tight, because if they come loose and a shaft falls off, how is the car going to stop...right!

And yes you need to modify the exhaust when you fit 1700 8V hyd engine to the inboard brake gearbox, like Paul says, but if you go outboard brake you can use a standard 1700 exhaust headers because the rotors are not in the way.

[Mike]

So basically if I simply keep the 1500 box casting, but check/replace internals then I can retain inboard setup.  I don't mind going to outboard setup (I have all the 33 parts).

So the 1500 box bolts striaght up to the 1700 engine?  For example, if I simply remove the 1500 engine only and drop the 1700 in, does it all bolt up?  I apperciate I will have slightly weaker shafts.

Thats for the detailed information, this will certainly help smooth out proceedings.

[Frank Musco]

Yes, if you remove the 1500 engine and replace it with the 1700 8V engine, it will bolt up to the inboard brake 1500 gearbox, no problems.

Remember if you swap gearbox internals and particularly the diff, you must blue up the crown and pinion and so on...

[Ray Pignataro]

Frank are 16 valve driveshafts different to 1.7 8 valve and will they interchange