new clutch for 98 GTV V6: single or dual mass flywheel?

[darkstar]

hi all,

seeking  some advice  please

the 98 GTV V6 needs a new clutch; have been quoted by a mechanic about 700 for the clutch kit, but depends on whether the kit is for a single or dual mass flywheel. This model originally came with dual mass but it's possible it might've been changed at some point to single mass (though I doubt it)

I can get a good clutch kit that suits a DMF for about $400 online

so my questions:

- what do people think of the likelihood that at some stage a previous owner would have changed the original DMF to SMF?
- if it does have a DMF am I better to get it changed to SMF anyway? I hear the engine might rev more freely with a SMF

if I can assume that it's got a DMF then I can buy the $400 clutch kit online. But maybe I'm better to go with a SMF anyway?

thanks guys, I hope you follow all that...

[Domenic]

You will never know 100% if it's been changed until you pull the gearbox out and see for yourself.

The Alfa V6 engine is balanced as a unit from factory, so if you change the flywheel, you'll need to get the complete bottom end balanced as a unit(flywheel, crank, front pulley, pistons & rods) just like it was done at the factory. So if you want the job done properly that is what you will need done to convert it to a SMF. Doing that might end up costing more than replacing the DMF and the clutch.

Have you tired the local suppliers for a price? Does the $400 for the online clutch include postage?
$400 seems about the same as buying a clutch kit locally, plus you get warranty from a local supplier.

At the end of the day it's you car, so the final decision is yours to make.

[darkstar]

thanks Domenic, most helpful

based on what you say about all the work needed to switch to SMF, I think it's safe to assume it hasn't been converted

no I haven't tried local suppliers, but from all accounts they're generally a lot dearer than what you can pay online. I'm looking at alfaworkshop.co.uk, who I've bought from before and seem very good

the $400 does include postage

[colcol]

The reason Alfa Romeo spent all the time and money developing the Duel Mass Flywheel, was for more refinement, you wouldn't want the engine vibrating like an old 202, after all it is an Alfa Romeo V6, i see that Repco makes conversion kits for commercial vehicles to convert back to Single Mass Flywheels, thats ok on a hilux, but not on an Alfa Romeo.
There was a post about a year ago about a Duel Mass Flywheel ordered from overseas, that cost a lot of money for freight, that took forever to arrive, then it was the wrong one and then he had to pay freighting costs to send it back and get the correct one, just be carefull.
The Duel Mass Flywheel was the biggest refinment made to Diesel engined manuals that made them acceptable for female drivers, or so said a Ford Engineer, Colin.

[Domenic]

Hey Darkstar,

You should give the local suppliers a go and see what price they have the clutch kit for, same goes with the Dealer. It might sound strange, but sometimes dealer prices are pretty reasonable, like a brake light switch for an Alfa 147, you can get a new one from the dealer for about $30 last time i checked which isn't much.

As Colin mentioned the DMF was developed for refinement and to reduce noise and vibrations.
I heard a story a few years ago in regards to a nissan navara (i know it's a truck and completely unrelated to Alfa) but the story goes a customer had the clutch changed and a SMF fitted as he didn't want to spend the money on a DMF. A couple of months later the ute would keep popping out of 4th gear. The gearbox pulled down inspected, nothing wrong with it, but 4th gear and assembly replaced as precaution.
Customer drives the car, another 2-3 months pass, same thing it pops out of 4th gear. It was finally diagnosed that because the SMF was sending different vibrations through the gearbox compared to a DMF. In the end it cost the customer over $8000 to later switch back to a DMF and have everything fixed.(more than twice as much as doing it properly in the first place)

At the end of the day, if a car manufacturer can save $5 on a part or cost of development on a car, they will. So if the Alfa engineers designed the car to have a DMF, then you should stick with a DMF. they wouldn't have spent time on R&D for nothing. Same goes with people not fitting the locating pin/bolt back on the brake disc on cars(especially 159 as aftermarket discs don't have the correct locating hole). If the Alfa engineers put in there from factory, there is a reason why it is there.

apologies for the long rant, but i suppose the more information you have, the better informed decision you can make for you Alfa.

[darkstar]

thanks guys; very clear that you would not switch to SMF, just asking for trouble.

Domenic, would you be able to suggest a local supplier or 2 to contact?

cheers

[Domenic]

Hi Darkstar,

Depends where you're located.
In SA there is Turin Imports or The Spares Place. In Melbourne there is Italian Automotive Spares.
There will be more on the Aroca home page on the side with a list of sponsors/suppliers to call and see.
Then there is always the dealers like Lance Dixon or Zagame are the main ones, but then there are all the newer ones.

[Jekyll and Hyde]

I would normally agree with the others on retaining the DMF, and I intend to do that on my turbo diesel 4wd.

HOWEVER! Alfa stopped fitting the DMFs themselves, sometime around the year 2000. In reality, the early (98-99) GTV V6 with the 5 speed is about the only 24v v6 commonly found with a DMF fitted.  Occasionally an earlier 6 speed GTV V6 will have one, and even GTs have been found to have one for some reason probably known only to the guys on the assembly line...

Which is the reason why, when replacing the clutch on my 98 GTV V6 in preparation to hand it over to my parents, I had no reservations in fitting a GTA flywheel and clutch in place of the knackered DMF.  Spectacular improvement.  Not only did it idle far smoother, not having the DMF wobbling around all over the place, but the DMF weighs almost 15kg, while the GTA flywheel is a little over 8kg.  That is a massive reduction in rotating mass, and you could feel it straight away, the engine was far more responsive and free revving through the entire range.

[darkstar]

thanks for supplier advice Domenic

hmmmm, it appears views on fitting a DMF to a 98 GTV V6 are very conflicting, on the one hand is 'don't do it, you're asking for trouble' and on the other hand there's J&H saying that 'the engine was far more responsive and free revving through the entire range' with a SMF...

given that J&H has actually done it, that seems like a very good indication. But may I ask J&H, how long ago was this done? I'm just thinkng that if it was only a short time ago, perhaps there could be problems yet to manifest?

also, there's a bloke here:
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=2&t=1168264&d=11880.80006&nmt= that says 'swapped the 15kg DMF on my old GTV V6 for the 8kg SMF from the GTA and it was all the better for it'

[Jekyll and Hyde]

Done close to a year ago now... No problems yet, and I'm not expecting any.  24v 164s ran the same gearbox with no DMF, and didn't have problems, the 6 speed in the newer cars is not much more than the 164 gearbox with an extra gear added in.  About the only reason I can see that Alfa would put the DMF in in the first place is to give a smoother feel on takeoff. Which is fine until the DMF does a few Kms, then the wear in it induces far more clutch shudder on takeoff than a single mass flywheel ever has.

As I said earlier - on something like a diesel motor, with massive amounts of vibration potentially being transmitted through the driveline, combined with lots of torque down low, and a good chance of pulling a heavy load away from a standing start (ie towing), an excellent idea for a number of reasons, and I will be replacing the DMF in my diesel with a new DMF when it's time to do the clutch.  In something as smooth as the Alfa V6? A complete waste of time...

If it were so important on the Alfa V6, why did Alfa stop using them after the phase 1 gtv?

[darkstar]

thanks J&H I'm inclined to get a SMF...

[Mick A]

I would definitely be taking J&H's advice on this particular topic. He is very experienced with these cars.

[darkstar]

Well I decided to just tell the mechanic to put a SMF on it while they do the clutch - extremely experienced Alfa mechanics - they told me SMFs are hard to come by because 'everyone' wants them, anyway they indicated they'll put one on if they can locate one.

I just want to get the car back on the road so not keen to stuff around trying to order online and waiting for delivery