Jagermeister "GTAm" in RACE magazine

[vin sharp]

An interesting story and pictures of the Jagermeister so-called "GTAm" in current RACE magazine.
Apparently this month it is an "ex-works GTAm" that competed in French hill-climbs, in the previous C&S is was an ex-ETCC car in original colours, back in March it was an unidentified Italian team car, and Alfa Romeo Centro Documentazione says it is actually a 2000GTV.....my money is on the last one.
The article is certainly worth a smile or two, particularly the descriptions of things that have been reverse engineered to period correctness, like the alloy fuel tank which oddly enough looks absolutely nothing like any GTA/Am tank.
Apparently, in RACE mag,  GTAms have HUGE brakes on the front (same as Porsche 917, to quote the owner at P/Island). Well actually and quite unusually for a race car, they have SMALLER brakes to fit inside the 13" wheels.....
Oh well, looks like I'll have to toss out about 80% of the original 1970 Autodelta parts on the Chesterfield GTAm to match the period correctness of the Jagermeister car. Odd thing is though, the Alfa Museum GTAm is virtually nut and bolt identical to the Chesterfield car, and the two have another thing in common; 10551 153xxx GTAm chassis numbers, not 2000GTV.
As an well known English Alfisti said to me " don't you have books or internet down under?" in reference to why only Australians seem to believe this is a real GTAm.
It would be nice if perhaps it turned out to be a 2000GTV that had the big flares fitted at some point in the past and had competed in some period races, but it's still no original GTAm.
Perhaps facts might ruin an otherwise good story....
I think mentions of rareness and rising values and trying to build a story and a file of magazine articles has more to do with it.
Cheers,
Vin.

[branko.gt]

The fact that "authors" of those two articles did not bother to fact check or even actively decided not to fact check says a lot about the magazines and the prevailing culture.
It is a good looking car driven by a chick , but apparently that is not enough. Swallowing hook, line and sinker the story of the "racing history" of the "works car GTam" makes for much more compelling article.
Critical reasoning is not a required qualification at this level of journalism and what's her name played them masterfully. I am not sure if if she ever specifically lied and said that the car is a genuine GTam. I would not be surprised if everyone was too "nice" to ask a direct question.

Even yourself is to blame for not rocking a boat when you clearly had a chance to. You were at the club meeting where Roz spoke about the car and the "racing history" off it. It was obvious that a large number of present members "assumed" that is was a genuine car. If you spoke then maybe at least the C&S article would be about a nice replica. I though about asking the question about the authenticity of the cat at the time but i looked at you and though "if Vin is happy to let it slide i'll just keep quiet".

20:20 hindsight is a bitch, i now know i should have ask the rude question "is that a replica".
Once again i would have been a bad guy for ruining a good story, not Ros for peddling half truths and innuendos alluding  to the originally of her knockoff.

Barry is unhappy with you for "attacking" him and not with Ros for giving him a bullshit story about the car.

The bigger problem is, as you rightly say, that a history is being made up with these articles. These two articles if ever presented as supporting evidence about the car will actually have a negative effect over any article ever written, on the matter, in Australia. As i said before, those two articles say a lot about the level of motoring journalism and it is very easy to generalise and think that it reflects the quality of all motoring journalism in Australia, regardless if that is indeed the case or not. 

In general terms people do not care if something is knockoff or a genuine article. I bet you that if your car was presented for a popularity contest against Roz's car, your car would lose hands down. Even though Roz's car is a knockoff of the car that never existed.

[aggie57]

Perhaps an article submitted to C&S explaining the differences between replica's and the real thing would be helpful. Doesn't need to be long and can easily reference specific vehicles causing grief.

[Evan Bottcher]

Vin, it's certainly worth a letter to the editor Neil (contact details here).  I spoke to him on the day at the Phillip Island classic, suggesting he may need to check on the provenance of the car but to no heed.

I also think it's worth addressing your issue with the details published in the C+S again with a letter to the editor directly - which should be published accordingly.  Posting here just wakes up the trolls (Branko), and the resulting rancour in my opinion does us no favours.

[vin sharp]

Yes Evan and Alister, I tend to agree with you.
I did originally suggest that a certain amount of restraint with any specific originality claims and a general description of excellent car presentation and unbounded enthusiasm by the owner would be a more cautious approach for C&S while claims are still rather clouded. C&S is a great quality publication, and all credit to Barry for the work that goes into it. In the end he was reporting what he was told and he put faith in that at the time.
I am still giving the owner the benefit of absolute doubt and am still in discussions with people in Europe who are much involved in such historical Alfa models and are looking for any evidence of this car.
After all, IF it does have this history then it deserves to be included on the lists of genuine cars and included in the Alleggerita  register. Alas, there has been zero positive information so far. I suspect at best it's possible it may have been a club racer or hillclimb car, perhaps even with wide flares fitted. However in the RACE article she says she had to travel to Italy to find out how the flares were fitted because there was no sign of how to do this...
Interesting that my Euro contacts tell me that for the past 12 months or more, there has been a concerted effort across internet forums and filtering into print media, of people lacing known factual matter with fiction in an attempt to inflate the number of GTAs and GTAms built by trying to introduce non-produced or known destroyed chassis numbers. I've had several contacts from dubious quarters, even with faked/photoshopped pictures, which I forwarded on to people who even identified some as their own cars with changed numbers and unknown driver!!!  There are several people who have bought "cars with history", even from big auction houses and are now in court over hundreds of thousands of dollars...
I would have thought RACE magazine would have fact-checked, at least somewhat given the tone of correctness relative to the Alfa Museum GTAm....or is that just me??
It seems that if one wanted to, you could grab Jim Gordon's Super (apologies Jim, first one I could think of!), paint it white, add Alec Mildren Racing Team stickers and do a full magazine track test and photo shoot on the "Sandown 6hr winning Alfa Giulia Ti Super"....and that's OK?  Even though the real car is in the UK (currently) and owned by someone else.
I better get to with my one-finger typing.....
PS, did anybody see the Scuderia Portello GTA1600 chassis 613018 that was for sale? VERY early 1965 GTA number, but even from the sale photos you can see that from at least the A pillars back it is a later car....several of us put up the warning flags on various media but it still sold straight off at auction for a premium price......no, I didn't put in a bid! One wonders where all that might end up and who becomes accountable for what.
Cheers,
Vin.

[aggie57]

For sure Vin, its very scary what lengths people will go to when these cars become so sought after.  Just like in the art world no doubt.  And I for one appreciate the passion you have for "getting it right". 

If you want to send me your one finger typed draft I'm more than happy to sort out the formatting and spelling for you . 

[Barry Edmunds]

As the "author" of one of the articles that have troubled some people so much, please advise where and when I should start grovelling and begging forgiveness for committing the heinous crime of being naïve enough to actually believe what I was told by the owner of a particular car. I also apologise for not consulting the experts before going to print. Pity that the deadline was against me at the time. Magazine deadlines don't usually allow time for 20/20 hindsight and or reflection.
The pages of C&S are, as always, available should those desirous of providing the true story to correct any wrong claims. Deadline for September C&S is FRIDAY AUGUST 15.

[Neil Roshier]

I feel that I too should reply to the criticism listed above, some of which may be warranted and some is frankly just incorrect.
Vin stated that in Race Magazine it was reported that the Jagermeister Car (JC) had 917 Porsche brakes. This is incorrect. At the bottom of page 27 the article reads: "...the brakes are as they were in period , which are Porsche discs which they ran and back then..."
Would 917 brakes ever fit in a 13" wheel? - of course not as the 917's used a 15" wheel we all know that!
Did I check the ID of the chassis number? No, but then from your post on the Alfa BB forum Vin you seemed to indicate that you also had not done so and if you had done so and it did not match known records of all of the factory race cars or period conversions then that would be interesting - more on this later.
Regards to the shape of the fuel tank...well research or such things is admittedly limited in any book I could find. I did however google images of works GTam's in period to check the engine bay appearance and it seemed within the parameters of what I could see on various cars.   
Branko I am not sure if you have read the article(s)?
There are actually two articles on Alfa GT's in that issue of Race Magazine. The first is based on Roz's car and is not a historical article, but is the story of Roz's passion for Alfa's and her story in relation to this car (again more on this later) and Alfa's in general - a point I made to Evan at the track.
The second article is the racing history of the Alfa's, which was based on period accounts, actual race results and some correspondence - if there is any issue here I would be most interested.
In regards to the research into Roz's story about her car I can say that I was fully aware of Vin's aspersions on the Alfa BB as  to the veracity of Roz's claims. At that time Vin had apparently not seen/recorded the VIN. I sent an email to Roz to query Vin's claims. At the same time contacted Goodwood, where the car was accepted to run and was accepted to be as claimed. Local organisers of PI had no issue with Roz's claims. Roz did not reply to my email.
As a result of Vin's allegations and the lack of reply email the Alfa was removed as the car on the cover and moved to a minor article at the last moment. As with Barry I do not have the luxury of an excess of time. 

[Craig_m67]

As the "author" of one of the articles that have troubled some people so much, please advise where and when I should start grovelling and begging forgiveness for committing the heinous crime of being naïve enough to actually believe what I was told by the owner of a particular car. I also apologise for not consulting the experts before going to print. Pity that the deadline was against me at the time. Magazine deadlines don't usually allow time for 20/20 hindsight and or reflection.
The pages of C&S are, as always, available should those desirous of providing the true story to correct any wrong claims. Deadline for September C&S is FRIDAY AUGUST 15.

Wow, what an attitude!!

As the partner of professional journo and broadcaster she would be absolutely aghast and chasing the real story to ensure future corrections (in time).

I guess the publication has no value.

[David Mills]

I joined AROCA (Vic) in 1971 or 1972 and lasted only a year or two because I was appalled by the political manoeuvrings of the committee of the time crushing the real objective of the members interests in sharing the joy of their interest in their cars.

Despite a long term love of Alfas and owning at least one in all the intervening years, it took 40 years before I came back to the fold.

LIGHTEN UP GUYS!!

[vin sharp]

Neil,
To correct what you just said, I quoted the owner at PI as the source of the 917 brake claim, RACE did make mention of huge brakes however...
I realize time constraints etc on editors, and will contact you both to explain a few things.
My PC is currently down, & I can't do it all from phone at the moment
Regards
Vin

[massiveluvbuddy67]

Colleagues,

In my humble opinion, the lifespan of this subject thread is at an end.

It has served to upset no end of good people, club members, guests to our country, well intentioned authors and hard working, volunteer committee members, who all have one thing in common - we enjoy our Italian cars.

My position, for what it is worth, is that I appreciate seeing all of those cars out on the track and whether they are ridgy-didge is of less concern to me as I enjoy the spectacle and am less concerned about the impact to my (or someone else's) investment.

The truth will always prevail. There are Alfisti anoraks all around the globe who delight in recognising the correct screw in the correct position and ensuring factual integrity for the valuable cars. All good and worthwhile.

Evan, in my opinion, time to close this subject down please. There is no good in this thread.

Best Regards
Phil

[Brad M]

The truth will always prevail.

Hopefully before someone gets burnt.

Interesting how in April (about 2 weeks after PI) the original build post of this car on the AlfaBB was deleted.

[aggie57]

Ruffled feathers aside, according to Vin's most recent post on the Alfabb:

"It is a 2000GTV 105.21 body, number 2427012 , December 1971 build, metallic beige original".

Assuming that comes from Marco and the chassis number quoted is correct then I guess we're done. If not then I'm sure he'll tell us the source quick smart.

Ah, the power of the internet and social media.  Nice car though!

[Evan Bottcher]

The club president (who is not Phil) has asked me to lock this thread and let it fade into history.  Have a good day everybody!

Peace and love to everybody  <3