Alfa Romeo Stelvio

[kaleuclint]

I can't see it because there is no heritage of mid-engined Alfas...  So the 4C gains attention as was the intention but it doesn't carry through to the Giulia, which is not a mid-engined sports car and has little in common with the 4C.

Returning to topic, another issue is that Alfa doesn't have a heritage of making SUVs either.  As for taking on the Macan, well - the Macan is purpose designed and
not a sedan pumped up to be an SUV.  That's why it rules.

The Giulia however captures the heritage perfectly.  Now just needs to be extended into a coupe / spider / 2+2.  Which should happen, and could have happened already with a focus on what Alfa does best.

[Darryl]

I can't see it because there is no heritage of mid-engined Alfas...  So the 4C gains attention as was the intention but it doesn't carry through to the Giulia, which is not a mid-engined sports car and has little in common with the 4C.

Sorry. Got to call foul on that one. Your thesis seems to be about what is or is not compatible with the brand or a halo car etc. You and I don't need to agree on our favorites but Alfa Romeo have built a lot of vehicles and configurations of them. The example *you* chose to make a point using is a clear tribute to an Alfa Romeo I have always lusted after and I don't seem alone (dealers' walls were plastered in pictures of it before there was any inkling of the 4C). The Tipo 33 Stradale, a mid-engine lightweight low volume "halo" car that I not only have no hope of ever owning, but I have no hope of even getting into if I stole one (I'm 6'4"). I do fit in a 4C... I'm sure Alfa made some concessions to making a marketable "halo" model when they made it relatively (a) affordable (using an engine out of a volume production car) and (b) possible for potential customers to actually get into (fitting their sandwiches in as well remains a problem, although at least they get toasted).

You also suggest a particular direction to go in from the Giulia sedan. Alfa has history of everything from stripped down race cars to luxury cars with varying degrees of practicality - the road going "luxury SUV" is a ridiculous label for a less low slung, more comfort and space oriented vehicle than road cars had been converging on. The marketing people needed a label, fast, when people wanted not a Camry and not a Hilux, and certainly not a Tarago.

But back to Alfa. Touring would have been happy to build a "SUV" (they would have considered it a limousine) for you on your 6C chassis.... Or build a low slung thing with a back seat, or yes, build something on a SWB chassis with no back seat and no roof.

But of course there is only so far you can stretch a platform. I think Alfa have managed to pick a good middle ground to start from with the Giulia. Lets see where they can take it and what else they come up with, but there is no denying where the volume is, so that's where they have gone first, and need to prove themselves. I'm not sure what exactly the road going SUV needs from its platform that the Stelvios doesn't have? What is the Macan's magic ingredient? And Porsche's SUV heritage is considerably more lacking than Alfas. On the other hand, if Alfa *had* made a sports car on the platform, would you have informed us how it was doomed because Porsche builds proper sports cars not based on sedan platforms and Alfa needs to try harder? Fair point actually - but isn't that what the prancing horse brand is for (barring the light-weight, small engine capacity approach - hmm - I present - again - exhibit 4C)? But maybe that should have been an Abarth 

[kaleuclint]

I think we're diverging a bit here Darryl.

If the 4C echoes the superb Tipo 33 then that's fine by me. And I'm sure the 4C in its own right is a highly desirable Alfa.  I'd love one.

But do I even as an Alfa owner -- or does the majority of the wider car buying public associate the Tipo 33 with the 4C?  Hardly, I'd suggest. 

Do they regard mid-engined layout as a key characteristic of Alfas?   The 18 examples (is that correct?) of the iconic Tipo 33 Stradale -- fine car that it is -- haven't defined any mass production Alfa model since.  Just as the hero car Ford GT40 produced in far greater numbers didn't position Ford as a maker of mid-engined cars in the minds of the purchasers given all those Fiestas, Escorts,Cortinas, Capris, Mustangs and Crown Victorias that people associate with the blue oval ahead of any homologation special. 

I am not denying Alfa has made a mid-engined road car previously.  What I am saying is the that great majority of prospective Alfa purchasers (of the Giulia) have no idea what the Tipo 33 Stradale is, don't connect the Tipo 33 with the 4C, and probably won't even connect the 4C with the Giulia.  And that's the issue.  The purpose of the 4C was to build attention, recognition and brand equity in the U.S. market ahead of the Giulia, a model with which it shares little.  Layout -- no.  Drivetrain -- no.  So disregarding the desirability of the 4C itself, did it achieve its intended objective?  Would FCA have been better served getting the Giulia into production and gaining attention as a maker of front-engined C-segment cars? 

Getting back to the original thread...  What is the Macan's magic ingredient?

It's a Porsche with the return on brand equity that implies.  Well built.  It's close to entry level in the Porsche range.  It's designed to be an 'SUV' from the get-go, rather than being an extension of a car design.  It builds upon the market success of the ubiquitous in my neighbourhood Cayenne (there are no Mattas around here).  It's consistently rated best in class with the possible exception of the much, much lower volume Range Rover Sport SVR rarely seen around here.  Beyond that, the Macan has propelled Porsche to record profitability.  Its production is limited to preserve brand equity (and drive up demand no doubt). 

So -- is taking on such a vehicle a smart move as the first extension of the Giulia platform??  I respectfully suggest "no".  The 'nuova Brera / nuova Spider / nuova GT' if you will wouldn't be competing with Porsche.  Granted they would be competing with BMW; still a massive challenge.  But they would do so with the credibility, recognition and heritage of building desirable, affordable, characterful (dare I say front-engined?) cars that Alfa possesses. 

I agree that the 'SUV' segment (particularly in North America) is where the demand is.  Whether you choose to attempt to meet that demand in the most competitive segment is the question.  Maybe creating your own niche or occupying the segment you are best associated with makes more sense?  For all that, Bentley, Jaguar and even Rolls-Royce are moving into 'SUV's, but their offerings sit in a greatly different place relative to the rest of their respective product line ups.

Referring back to my previous post, here's something else to consider:  Rolls-Royce offers more models in Australia than my local Alfa dealer (including the 4C if you like). 

Having taken the Stelvio route let's hope it's a success for Alfa.

[Darryl]

I think we're diverging a bit here Darryl.

If the 4C echoes the superb Tipo 33 then that's fine by me. And I'm sure the 4C in its own right is a highly desirable Alfa.  I'd love one.

... massive snip ...

Having taken the Stelvio route let's hope it's a success for Alfa.

Diverging on actual product. Not on image to sell it...
Sure, people don't know about the 33 Stradale. But they have seen pictures. And video. And... It looks cool and stylish and shows "heritage" and the 4C connects very directly with it. There is a serious effort to create a brand image, a language, etc of desirability based on some sort of heritage. In that way its just like flogging expensive watches... I think FCA are very conscious of positioning Alfa as way outside the mainstream (image) but if the image appeals you can buy something that reflects it (like an SUV). This avoids just being seen to be offering a re-hash/copy (so less desirable) of a BMW that already has a more established image. Write off the 4C as a tool to establish that image, not as a product to sell.... At least it isn't as expensive as building Veyrons... Alfa, lets be honest, has no recent credibility as an actual car maker in the segmetns FCA wants to place it in - it is trading on the image.

The luxury performance crossover SUV segment is not populated by many established players or products - good on Porsche for claiming it early. I think the Stelvio's engineering may well be up to the task, not despite but because of being based on a decent handling and, by all reports, decent riding, car... I think it's likely to turn out to be ahead of most of the competition. Better than the Macan? No idea - lets say not.

I don't think Alfa want to make a few of this, and a few of that (who would, it's too expensive). They have picked some very specific market segments that they think they can be successful in based on a manufactured image that steers clear of the more recent baggage associated with the brand. It's an interesting move going for SUV over going head to head in road car variants. But either way the objective would be to build credibility in a carefully chosen battle or 2 before (assuming they don't get completely routed) going to war with the Germans.

It will be interesting.