916 GTV rear shocks suggestions

[ugame]

Hi ugame,

Broken part looks like it broke fairly recently given the color of the old / new surfaces.  If it was inside the spring and therefore a smaller diameter than the spring its unlikely to be a spring shim or part of the spring seat.  Spring seats are usually rubber and a shim wouldn't be plastic.  Is it part of the bump stop?
Whats the difference in ride height left to right?

Difference in ride height is about 1 finger.

Not the most technical measurement I know, but it brings back fond memories of a great drinking game at a stag night many years ago lol.

So to translate.....I'd say about 20mm if that.

OK....just went outside and did some measuring in the dark.

The difference in height is about ~18mm

Guess what? ...the part is...... ~14mm

So maybe I don't have a sagged spring after all. Seems too close to be coincidence.

[Colin Edwards]

If the broken plastic part is a similar diameter to the lowest coil of the spring maybe it sits between the spring and the pan in the lower control arm.  It would probably account for the difference in ride height.  Whats in the control arm pan on the other side?   Just seems strange to use material like that under those type of loads.

[ugame]

If the broken plastic part is a similar diameter to the lowest coil of the spring maybe it sits between the spring and the pan in the lower control arm.  It would probably account for the difference in ride height.  Whats in the control arm pan on the other side?  Just seems strange to use material like that under those type of loads.

And that's why I dismissed it as such originally.

Will check when I next get time to pull it apart, which sadly wont be for about a month now.

[ugame]

just on another note re the new shocks though.....

Ultimate test today as I had to use the GTV to take my lads to school.

ON the old shocks, this is where the rear right tire would sometimes contact the inner guard when i hit a bump.

Not a single knock/scrape this time.

So they've fixed that problem.

[johnl]

I purchased the Koni yellows locally from Top Performance in Vermont.

Last time I used Koni "reds" was over 30 years ago when tuning Toyotas.  Back then the main diference (apart from price) was the red was not gas pressuised.  Also, the reds had to be removed from the car for adjustment.  Never had any problems with them on a road car.  Always found a suitable setting with them on standard or higher rate springs.

My understanding is that on any given car 'reds' are generally just a bit stiffer than stock dampers, and 'yellows' are usually significantly stiffer.

When I fitted 'yellows' to my old Accord I found them disappointingly soft on the softest setting, and substantially stiffer when adjusted to be stiffer (surprise...). Koni recommends using the softest setting and to use the adjustment to account for wear as they age. Yeah right, that was never going to happen, from new they were much much better when set toward the stiffer end of the range.

The reds and yellows are only supposed to be adjustable for rebound (i.e. the adjuster only acts on the rebound valve), but subjectively and by the scientific 'push down hard on the fender' test I found the yellows to be significantly stiffer in bump as well when the rebound stiffness was cranked up. I suspect some backflow through the rebound valve that is less when the valve is closed up...?

I've never heard of 'reds' not being pressurised, though they may not have been back in the distant past. They are only adjustable off the car, not very convenient (to understate it). Given my experience with the intrinsically stiffer yellows on the Honda, my guess is that the reds would likely work best at 'full hard'. I've heard it said (well, read it in the internet, so it must be true...), that Konis shouldn't be adjusted to 'full' stiff as this can close the valve so much that momentary internal pressures in use can become so high as to damage the damper. I've run them at full stiff with no obvious damage issue, but not for long because the ride was just a bit too harsh (even for me...).

I had yellows on the Accord for years, and eventually they lost their gas pressure, as well as started to leak a bit. Still worked really well though...

Some yellows are adjustable in situ, some aren't. The ones that aren't need to be adjusted off the car in the same way reds are. I suspect this is due to Koni considering that an on car adjuster (fitted at the top of the damper rod, as Koni does it) would be inaccessible with a particular application. With my Accord this was the case with the rear dampers, though by removing a couple of pressed metal braces behind the seat (four small easily accessible bolts per brace) the top of the dampers were relatively easy to reach, and it would have been a lot easier to do this than being forced to remove the dampers (and dismantle the strut...) in order to adjust them. Apparently the 'top of the rod' adjusters can be retro-fitted, but the Konis can only be serviced by a Koni authorised shop (Koni won't supply parts to anyone else), and any 'official' work on Konis is expensive (to the point that having worn Konis rebuilt isn't really cost effective vs buying a new set...).

A friend fitted a set of 'orange' Konis to his Civic, and they were quite disappointing. No adjustment at all and basically just a soft 'stock replacement' damper.

Regards,
John.

[ugame]

'A friend fitted a set of 'orange' Konis to his Civic, and they were quite disappointing. No adjustment at all and basically just a soft 'stock replacement' damper. "

The Str.t is orange and non Adjustable.

And at 88 pounds for the pair, probably why they were perfect for my scenario.

Didn't have to spend much.

Better than worn stickies.

Fixed my rubbing issue.

Perfect.

[johnl]

Well, if the stock dampers are in fact stiff enough for the job, or suit the preference of the driver re stiffness, then the orange Konis should be fine. If the stock damper is relatively stiff then so too should be the 'orange' Konis, but if not then they won't really be an 'upgrade' beyond being better than worn dampers.

I wasn't saying they are a bad damper, just that my friend was disappointed because he expected they would be somewhat 'sportier' than they were on his car. Perhaps it was a matter of reading something into the name 'Koni' that was not really applicable to this their cheaper end product...?

Regards,
John.

[Citroënbender]

There seems to be reasonable accord on the proposition that OEM Alfa shocks have not been much chop in recent years.

One thing I reckon you get with a "name" like Koni or Bilstein is some certainty of consistent quality in manufacture; a build that equals or exceeds OEM (and frequently cheaper than OEM). The other potential benefit is that fitting such a type of product may assist in prosecuting a claim that involves the ascribed value of the vehicle.

[ugame]

Well, if the stock dampers are in fact stiff enough for the job, or suit the preference of the driver re stiffness, then the orange Konis should be fine. If the stock damper is relatively stiff then so too should be the 'orange' Konis, but if not then they won't really be an 'upgrade' beyond being better than worn dampers.

I wasn't saying they are a bad damper, just that my friend was disappointed because he expected they would be somewhat 'sportier' than they were on his car. Perhaps it was a matter of reading something into the name 'Koni' that was not really applicable to this their cheaper end product...?

Regards,
John.

I guess it's hard for me to compare as I've not owned a GTV from new, or one with new OEM shocks fitted.

I went mostly on the knowledge that.....

Most of what I read on using Koni Sports on a GTV rear said the best setting was "soft" for a stiff but compliant ride.
The STr.t's (orange) are said to be like the Koni sport but between "soft" and "medium", leaning toward soft.
Koni themselves, when contacted, said
"It should be noted that although base Sport and STR-T damping rates can be the same, the KONI Sport 30-1608SPORT damper is constructed in a mono-tube high pressure gas design and such a design can add to the spring rate and feel firmer on the road. The 8050-1068 STR-T is constructed in a twin tube low pressure gas design."

Armed with that, for my application, it was a no brainer. What I'd be getting would be as good as stock, if not a smidge better, but for less cost.

To me then, in contrast to what I've been driving with, yes, it feels "sporty" to the point of me now looking at the fronts and contemplating the same treatment. But I totally understand that this is because I am not comparing it to new, but to old OEM setup.

[johnl]

When I bought my 147 (Twin Spark TI) I knew from the test drive that the rear dampers needed immediate replacement (totally shagged), and the fronts weren't great either, assumed to be on the way out but not as far gone. I replaced all four with new TRW stock rated dampers. The new rear ones were OK, but the new front TRWs were barely any better than the old original (Boge?) ones I took off (i.e. pretty hopelessly under-damped). Bit the bullet and replaced the still effectively new fronts with B6 Bilsteins (mono-tube 'sports' rated), which were a huge improvement. I'd like to get B6 dampers for the rear too, but the stock ones work well enough that I can't justify the expense.

Eliminating my 147s soft rear lateral control arm bushes has resulted in the rear suspension feeling as if the dampers have been stiffened, even though they haven't been.

I have no experience with the GTV, so no idea how stiffly damped (or sprung) the stock suspension is. If the stock damper is fairly stiff then so too should the Koni 'orange' be, I would expect. My friends Civic would have been fairly softly damped stock, so the orange Konis were too. My guess would be that the GTV is likely to be significantly more stiffly sprung and damped than the 147 is...? The 147 seems to be very under-damped stock, at least the front end.

The Koni 'Sports' (yellow) that I had on my Accord were all twin tube dampers, and most 'Sports' for other applications seem to be the same. This doesn't mean that all 'Sports' are twin tube, I've heard that some are mono-tube in some applications.

Regards,
John.

[ugame]

I think you'd be right in saying the 147 is softer.

I own both (both in TS).

The 147 however is a family hatch back and does that job well.

The GTV is a sports car (of sorts) so I'd hope it would be stiffer than a family hatch

That said, I'd be interested to know how a GT compares to a 147, as they are the same base?

[ugame]

Just to update,

The ride is still nice and tight, however soon after installation i developed a squeak. I first thought this was from the front but I now think it's rear driver side as it's got progressively worse.

Still hard to track down exactly where from, and there are no visible splits in the bushes.

I dont think it is the shocks themselves, but I do wonder if the hard bush at the top of the shock (unlike the OEM soft bushing on the old shock) is a potential issue.

I'm planning on hitting various places with silicon spray as a trouble shooting step.

I'm wondering if I should remove the shocks, and grease up the related bushes and re-install.

I could even temporarily re-install the old shocks I guess. That would tell me for certain if the squeak is related to the new shocks and related bushes.

[ugame]

Creaking is coming from the front driver side suspension as I originally thought so not related to the konis at all.

Spent some time with it in my garage today and most its 100% the front.

Mostly right behind the top of driver side wheel where the spring is.

Time to upgrade the front I guess

[Citroënbender]

Upper wishbones would be a good guess, if it's like a 147/156/GT.

[bazzbazz]

Agreed.

To check, get some silicone spray, bounce up and down on the drivers guard to make the squeak/creak. Then spray the rubber bushing of the upper arms in the inner pivot point between the arm and the upper arm mount, bounce the front up & down again and if the creak disappears you have confirmed its the upper arms that needs replacing and not something else.