916 GTV rear shocks suggestions

[ugame]

cheers guys.  Will give that a go tonight.

I was trying to hit anything I thought was creaking, or anything that looked like a bushing with silicon spray yesterday, but the squeaking persisted.

Will have a look at an exploded diagram and hit the upper wishbone tonight.

So wishbone a smaller job than shocks and springs?

This the part?
https://www.alfaholics.com/parts/gtv-spider/suspension-3/wishbone-133/

And if it's creaking, how close to the car exploding and destroying the planet am I? Pasta Run is in 2 weeks :/ (street event NOT track event).

EDIT:
Found this how-to for the 147
http://www.alfaworkshop.co.uk/alfa_wishbone_replacement.shtml

So Hoping that the 916 GTV is of similar "ease".

[Citroënbender]

I had a look at ePer, the Spider apparently uses different upper suspension to the 147/GT/156 and doesn't have the dinky little wishbone. So I led you and Bazz up the garden path unintentionally.

Creaking without noticeable slop in things, is frequently the upper strut mounts. Creaking at low speed manoeuvres plus vagueness at road speed can be either that or worn inner tie rod ends (rack ends)... These latter comments are general across marques - not Spider specific. 

[ugame]

I had a look at ePer, the Spider apparently uses different upper suspension to the 147/GT/156 and doesn't have the dinky little wishbone. So I led you and Bazz up the garden path unintentionally.

Creaking without noticeable slop in things, is frequently the upper strut mounts. Creaking at low speed manoeuvres plus vagueness at road speed can be either that or worn inner tie rod ends (rack ends)... These latter comments are general across marques - not Spider specific.

There's no slop at all and no vibrations either so I'd not suspect tie rod ends (I've had that before so know what that slop feels like).

And the creaking is most definitely coming from the top of the wheel area.

I assume there is still an upper wishbone on the GTV with related bushes?.....well the part I posted above would make it seem so.  So I'll have another good look and see what else I can hit with the silicon spray.

In relation to the upper strut mounts, am I safe to remove the rubber cover under the bonnet, and spray silicon from the top, and will that penetrate through to the area in question? (not as a fix, but to see if that is what is making the noise).

[Citroënbender]

If you're going to use silicone spray, only treat one article at a time. 

The wishbone you pictured, is fixed at the bottom of your hub carrier.  On a 147/GT/156 it's called the lower wishbone.

The link is for a Fleabay front leg off a 147.  You might see the differences with what is in your Spider.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/122303239100

[ugame]

Cheers mate. Yep I'll have a good look tonight. And yes I am spraying 1 thing at a time. Spray, bounce, listen, repeat

Hard to see on the GTV up the top. Turned the wheel full lock both ways but still hard to get to stuff and see what is what.

Will be easier with the wheel off but then....

Jack up
Remove wheel
Spray
Replace wheel
Lower
Bounce
Listen
Repeat

lol no thanks

[bazzbazz]

Hang on, sorry, I forgot we were talking GTV here.

The front suspension is VERY different from 156/147 setup, there are NO upper arms to speak of. this photo will show it better.



Also the link here as to how to remove the lower arms of a GTVwill also assist -

http://www.alfaworkshop.co.uk/alfa_lower_wishbone.shtml

[ugame]

Cheers bazz. 

To update, I've hit everything in sight with silicon spray now and no change.

Sound as much as I can pin it down is right back within the spring, perhaps within the shock itself.

Not coming from any bushes on the lower arm.

So worn spring itself perhaps?  Or the shock?  Or as already suggested, the top mount or strut mount bearing?

Who knows. 

Think from here it'll be a trip to the specialist but that may have to wait till the new year.

For now she's on light duties until the pasta run.  The perks of having 3 cars lol.

Think I'll take the beetle to work tomorrow.

[ugame]

My money is on worn strut actually.

As when I lifted the rubber boot on the side in question, the shaft was oily.

Now....that "could" have been the silicon spray I'd been hitting things randomly (by that point) with, however it was more black oily/greasy.

Didn't give it much thought beyond "That's the silicon spray probably" until this morning when I watched this........
https://youtu.be/uPh75zckPWE?t=1m (linked to correct time).

The boot on that side was all torn as well.

So I think what I need to find now is a good set of front shocks and springs, and may as well do the top strut mounts and related bushes as well?

[bazzbazz]

Yup, it will be the shock.

Silicone spray is like water in viscosity and the carrier fluid evaporates quickly and leaves behind the silicone. So if there is oil on the shaft, its from the shock, and a shock shaft should always be basically dry to the touch.

The good news is removing and replacing the shocks is pretty straight forward. Just make sure when you disassemble the struts you replace the upper mounts with new ones.

[ugame]

Yup, it will be the shock.

Silicone spray is like water in viscosity and the carrier fluid evaporates quickly and leaves behind the silicone. So if there is oil on the shaft, its from the shock, and a shock shaft should always be basically dry to the touch.

The good news is removing and replacing the shocks is pretty straight forward. Just make sure when you disassemble the struts you replace the upper mounts with new ones.

Cheers bazz.

Will double check again tonight but given the location the sound is coming from also, it's starting to add up (in my head anyway).

Now I'm on to the new challenge...... finding shocks for a bloody TS 916.

Seems Koni dont do them from what I can tell (not for the TS), so I'll be looking at OEM if I can find them or perhaps Bilstien B6's
http://www.europerformance.co.uk/pages/products/product_info.mhtml?product=290933;car=alfagtv

I'm guessing the B6's will be a closer match to the Koni's I have on the rear.

May as well do springs while I"m at it, but all this will have to wait until the new year TBH. Wrong time of year lol. Am I'm trying to convince the wife that old ALfa's (or any aged car tbh) can be enjoyed without spending money on them all the time.

sssshhhhhhh dont tell her the truth

[johnl]

I have B6 Bilsteins on the front of my 147 TS (with standard springs). They are a big massive improvement on the 'stock replacement' TRW dampers that I fitted shortly after buying the car. The new TRW dampers were not much better than the old dampers I took off assuming they were knackered, but now I think the stock damper rates are just way too soft (on the front at least). I couldn't live with the front TRWs, they were only on the car for a few weeks before I bit the bullet and got the B6s.

Having said this, I do think even the B6 dampers are not quite as stiff as they could be in rebound. They still have trouble properly controlling the suspension on rougher roads, in particular corrugated surfaces. In a perfect world (i.e. one where I had more cash), I'd send them off to be revalved a bit stiffer in rebound, maybe 25% or 30% stiffer (just gusssing here, I'd need to be guided by the Bilstein revalver, who I hope would know better than I would...).

The impression I have with the B6s is that Bilstein (may) have just taken the stock rates and added X% stiffness to both bump and rebound, which still leaves them with too little rebound relative to bump. The problem of weak rebound still seems to exist (which is I think the major problem with the stock rates, i.e. rebound in particular is way too soft), just not nearly as bad.

I had four Koni 'Sport' on my Accord, and they were much better set well toward 'full stiff' on their rebound adjustment (of course the 'Sport' adjuster supposedly only works on the rbound valve, but I strongly suspect there is significant 'cross talk' with the bump rate because the bump stiffness also seemed to increase significantly when the rebound valve was set stiffer). Set stiffly the Konis had no pronblem even on roughish dirt roads. Anyway, comparing Bilsteins on an Alfa to Konis on a Honda reminds of apples and oranges (though the front suspensions are quite similar...).

Oddly, the new rear TRW dampers are not nearly so bad as the new front TRWs were (and massively better than the original rear dampers, which were truly shagged). I'd like to also fit B6s to the rear, but the rear TRWs are not so bad that I can justify the cost (and rear B6s are significantly more expensive than the front ones are).

About springs; if the springs are not sagged then there is no reason to replace them, unless you want a different rate, and / or to change the ride height. The spring rate is determined only by the physical shape of the spring, i.e. its physical dimensions. The specific steel alloy has almost zero affect on the springs stiffness, nor does the heat treatment (if any). Metal fatigue doesn't affect rate either, unless the metal is starting to crack (which affects the 'shape' of the wire from which the spring is made).

Despite common assumption, even if they are a bit sagged springs will still retain their original rate, unless they are developing a crack (not all that likely). If a spring pair is near to being sagged to a more or less equal degree, but you are happy with the ride height and stiffness, then you shouldn't really need to replace them (unless they are so sagged that the suspension is hitting the bump stops).

Regards,
John.

[ugame]

Thanks for your excellent input john.

My thoughts on springs is that I'd hate to pull and replace thew shocks, only to find that the springs were the thing creaking lol. But I'm guessing that is not very likely?

I guess re cracks, if when it's all pulled out, if wear is discovered then I could make the purchase.

But if it's all being pulled apart, and given springs are not expensive, so I just buy them and have them to hand, so that if they ARE needed, then both jobs can be done at once.

hmmm.

I'll still get a quote for stock shocks as well but really appreciate your thoughts on the B6's.

It's hard because most of us have not experienced the stock shocks from new, so we're comparing old and worn OEM, to brand new after market, and making the assumption that OEM = junk.

However the price factor comes in and if OEM costs more than trusted after market options, then of course AM is the way to go.

[Citroënbender]

Like John L, I found the "upgrade" of front shocks to B6 in a 147, very worthwhile. While part of me would have liked to play with Koni Yellows and their tweakable damping, I came to the conclusion that every project has its practical cost limits and I probably tweak enough already.

Breaking coil springs in an English phenomenon.  If your car is Oz delivered, you have no reason to worry.  I've measured standard front coils of a 147 from three different cars, and despite varying mileages there was SFA difference in length. If you want to get the struts right first time, make sure to replace the hats with either genuine or known OEM/better, and also replace any spring seats (pads) upper and lower. 

[johnl]

Ugame,
I do have back to back experience between new 'stock replacement' dampers (albeit not the actual OE dampers) and the B6 dampers. It's no contest, at least on the front end the Bilsteins are way better, in comparison the stock rated units are complete junk, even when new. This is mostly because the stock front dampers are unusually poorly rated (very underdamped IMO). Rears are not so bad, but a bit more stiffness wouldn't hurt. 

If you hunt around you can find stock rate dampers at surprisingly cheap prices (try Arese Spares). Even so, still a waste of money in my experience. It was very disappointing to purchase and fit the new front TRWs only to find them unacceptably soft.

Springs don't make creaking noises, unless they are rubbing on something, or something is rubbing against the spring.

I think fractured springs are quite rare, especially on modern cars. Many springs will lose at least some 'free length' over time / use, and if so then the ride height will lower to some degree from new. Good quality springs are typically 'scragged' at manufacture, whereby the completed spring is momentarily compressed to full coil bind in order to 'pre-sag' the spring. This lessens later sagging in use.

An argument could be made that a brand new spring might create a higher ride height that may lower somewhat over time. The same argument would go on to say that a used but servicable spring might be more stable in length / ride height than a brand new one, because it has already sagged as much as it's going to. Personally I wouldn't spend my money on new springs unless I knew there was a problem with the old ones (I'd invest that cash into the $ needed for better dampers). If both springs in a pair have the same free length to within a few mm, then I'd be happy to keep them on my car, so long as the ride height was OK.

Regards,
John.

[bazzbazz]

Most importantly of all DO NOT try and use claw type screw spring compressors to take the struts apart if you are doing them yourself. A proper Strut Compressing Rig should be used, other wise you risk sever injury if anything goes wrong.

1/ The front struts are under much higher tensions than the rears
2/ They use a much narrower and tighter coil configuration and the screw-claw type compressors will slip
3/ I believe from memory the GTV struts are like the 147 & 156 front struts and are the "Offset" style, where the shaft does not run down the centre of the spring but along the back of it, making it near impossible to get even and straight compression of the spring.

Take the word from someone who knows what he is talking about here!

Check Six
Baz