164 3.0 Turbo

[V AR 164]

Hey guys,

Just doing some late night brainstorming.

I have recently read that the 2.0 V6 Turbo manifolds bolt straight up to the 3.0 V6 block with no modification needed. I have also discovered that underneath the front manifold, there are 3 studs which are intended for the 2.0 to mount the turbo.

Now a few people online have done this before with positive and negative results, but I am wanting a few more opinions.

The Q motors (which I would Turbo) have a high compression ratio (10:1 I believe) making it not the most suitable motor to boost, but would runnning low boost, say 5 psi hurt the motor?

I wouldn't be aiming for high hp, just a small increase (maybe 40-50 hp more).

So, any thoughts? What ecu would I use? Would the motor survive? Would I need to upgrade the fuel system?

(I am also well aware of the amount of work involved as well as the custom fabrication required).

Cheers, Andrew.

[Citroënbender]

Sounds like an adventurous project.

I'd suggest a first step would be getting your prospective turbo car onto an aftermarket ECU and seamlessly meshed with the original aspects of the wiring and controls; integration not superposition.

You might then look to the PRV turbo variants (Renault Alpine) for hints on making your Busso stout.

[Duk]

The key to keeping things like this alive is a combination of absolute control of fuel delivery, ignition timing, fuel injectors and pump that can easily provide enough fuel delivery, inlet air temperature control (as best as possible), inlet air temperature compensions mapping, information during tuning (especially knock feedback for the tuner) and keeping exhaust back pressure as low as possible.

So a good quality programmable computer and a good quality installation is a must.

Bigger injectors, atleast 50% higher flow rate, but more would be better as the 164 injectors are only about 185cc/min. Maybe a bigger fuel pump and make sure that the factory fuel pressure regulator works correctly as boost pressure rises. Testing will confirm if the fuel pump and injectors are keeping up.

Good intercooling.
High inlet air temperatures in the engine promote knock and reduce power. Some people will say it's not needed at low boost pressures, but those people are wrong.............. 
Discharge temperature from a small turbo on a big engine could easily be 40*C over ambient. Imagine a 80+*C air going into your engine when getting onto boost on a 40*C day. 
Correct air temperature compensation tuning would keep the engine alive, but power would suck badly.
Also, with excessive ignition retard to prevent knock, exhaust gas temperatures climb rapidly.
Which causes the exhaust valves to get hotter.
Which promotes knock............. A nasty circle.

Tuning and the ability to do it accurately based on data is critical.
Knock kills engines and accurate tuning kills knock.
There are 2 cast in bosses in the block between the heads. These are for knock sensors that the later 24v engines used. Drilling and tapping these bosses, fitting 2 generic knock sensors, plug the sensors into a small amplifier and listen to the engine thru a set of headphones while tuning. I've not done it, but that is an accurate, well priced pair of knock ears. You brain will be the noise filter and apparently when it begins, it's quite easy to hear the onset of knock. And you will hear it this well before you'd hear it by listening for it externally. If you can hear it externally, it's already been going on for too long.
Of course wide band air fuel ratio numbers are a prerequisite.

As for the turbo, I would look at using something a bit bigger than the 1 used in the 2 litre engines. Certainly use 1 with a higher exhaust A/R ratio to help reduce back pressure on the engine. Higher back pressure causes more heat retention in the combustion chambers and that promotes knock.
There's 50% more engine capacity with the 3 litre engine, so the turbo is going to be working a lot (50%..........) harder to match it. But you're also trying to get 50% more exhaust gas thru the turbine housing/turbine wheel.
And a good exhaust system after the turbo is also needed. 3" off the turbo and all the way to the tailpipe.

[V AR 164]

Thanks for the replies guys, especially Duk with your wealth of knowledge.

It does seem like a project which could be completed successfully, but in saying that, I am having my doubts it will be really worth it.

If I had a 4wd 164, different story, but 250hp-ish to the front wheels on a drivetrain that is over 25 years old may not be the greatest idea.

Some more research has shown that the largest turbo that can be fitted is a t25, which most likely would be a tad too small for the displacement, and that a larger t28 is too big and won't fit in the original mounts.

Nevertheless, still researching and may eventually go down this path,

Cheers, Andrew.

[Citroënbender]

I suspect that managing underbonnet heat would be a challenge too.

Notwithstanding, learning to diagnose and tune EFI properly with good results is an employable skill. You wouldn't be wasting your time.

[Duk]

You can work your way upto this sort of thing.

As Citroenbender said, get a (good quality) programmable computer in there and working well.
And by working well, that means doing all of the little piss-ant stuff that we all take for granted. Cold start, hot start and idle speed control with the varying loads that get applied to engines (alternator, air conditioner and (stationary) power steering).

From there, maybe build a bigger exhaust system. Start with a decent sized cat and work your way to the back of the car. The standard engine will work with that, but it may be a little bit annoying because there could be some weird droning noises at various points.
When you add a turbo to an engine, it's amazing how much sound energy they consume.

Then look to create a decent intercooler set up.
Look at where there are decent bits of structure to attach mounting points to so you can mount it You won't need a massive 'cooler, something like a 150x450x65 core would be plenty.
If the core measures about the same dimensions as the lower (bumper bar) air intake, then that's about as good as it gets.
Chances are you'll have to take the front bumper off to dummy fit the 'cooler.
A lot of this tends to be mind's eye sort of stuff.
Basically, you need to be able to figure it out inside your head.
So having things like a mandrel bend or spun donut in the desired diameter for the required plumbing, helps a lot to figure out what can actually be made to fit.
Or if you can get the Centre Line Radius of available mandrel bends or spun donut, then making a simple cardboard cutout of the desired pipe diameter can help you visualise the required path a lot better.

[Rising Sun]

Hey Andrew, just catching up on some threads and came across this one. Another option to consider is a 3.2. Still need to work out your exhaust and engine management, but it's an option which will give you a tonne of reliable hp.

[ARQ164 Shane]

IOSR Journal of Mechanical and Civil Engineering (IOSRJMCE) ISSN : 2278-1684 Volume 2, Issue 3 (Sep-Oct 2012), PP 38-44 www.iosrjournals.org
Turbocharging With Air Conditioner Assisted Intercooler
Mohd Muqeem
(Mechanical Engineering Department, Teerthanker Mahaveer University, India)
ABSTRACT: The objective of a turbocharger is to improve an engine's volumetric efficiency by increasing the density of the intake gas (usually air, entering the intake manifold of the engine). When the pressure of the engine's intake air is increased, its temperature will also increase. Turbocharger units make use of an intercooler to cool down the intake air. Here, our purpose is to bring the temperature of intake air nearer to the ambient temperature. The intercooling of intake air is greatly increased by installing a specially designed intercooler in which air will run as hot fluid and refrigerant, of the air conditioning system coming from cooling coil fitted in the dashboard, will run as cold fluid. The intake air will be cooled down by the air flowing through the fins of the intercooler and the refrigerant coming from the evaporator. And hence the density of air is increased by increasing the temperature drop across the intercooler.
Keywords - Air conditioner, intake manifold, intercooler, supercharger, turbocharger.
I. Introduction
Both gasoline and diesel engines that use superchargers and turbochargers face their own unique problems with intake air temperature. Superchargers and turbochargers significantly heat the intake air as they compress it to create boost. The higher boost pressure increases the air density, but the increased temperature of the air can largely offset this density gain. It is desirable to cool the compressed air before it enters the engine. In most cases cooling the compressed air with an intercooler, increases the air density more than any density losses that occur due to the accompanying pressure drop due to cooling or flow restrictions through an intercooler. In other words, inter cooling results in a net density increase for the air entering the cylinder. Intercooling also provides other benefits. For supercharged or turbocharged gasoline engines, reducing the intake air temperature suppresses detonation, just as it does for normally-aspirated gasoline engines. For diesel engines, intercooling increases charge density.
1.1 General Problems Associated With the Intercooler of Turbocharger
In the normal turbocharger system, the main problem is that in the countries where summers are very hot, the efficiency of intercooler goes on decreasing as the ambient temperature increases because the intercooler cools the hot air when relatively cold air passes through its fins. But in summers, the air temperature, which passes through the fins of the intercooler to take the heat of the hot air, is already high, so the efficiency of the intercooler gets decreased. Second drawback of this intercooler is that it works properly when the vehicle is running at high speed so that air passes through the fins of the intercooler at suitable speed which is fitted at the front of the vehicle otherwise the intercooler will not be able to reject the heat taken from the hot air. It means intercooler of normal turbo unit is more efficient at high speeds and its efficiency goes on decreasing as the speed of vehicle decreases. When an intercooler is working effectively, the intake air arrives hot and leaves a lot colder. Therefore, there's a temperature drop across the core. A perfectly efficient intercooler would drag the temperature of the compressed air down to ambient. But no intercooler is perfectly efficient, so the temperature drop across the core is always much less than this. For example, when a car first comes on boost, the temp drop across the intercooler might be 40 oC – the air coming from the turbo or supercharger is at 90 oC but after the intercooler it is decreased to 50 oC, a 40 oC drop. However, stay on boost for a longer period and the intercooler will start to heat-soak, its efficiency (and so the temperature drop across the core) getting less and less. With some intercoolers, after being on boost for a while, the temp drop across the core can end up being only about 10 oC.
II. How a Turbocharger Works
A turbocharger is a small radial fan pump driven by the energy of the exhaust gases of an engine. A turbocharger consists of a turbine and a compressor on a shared shaft. The turbine section of a turbocharger is a heat engine in itself. It converts the heat energy from the exhaust to power, which then drives the compressor, compressing ambient air and delivering it to the air intake manifold of the engine at higher pressure, resulting in a greater mass of air entering each cylinder. In some instances, compressed air is routed through an intercooler before introduction to the intake manifold. Because a turbocharger is a heat engine, and is converting otherwise wasted exhaust heat to power, it compresses the inlet air to the engine more efficiently than a supercharger.

[Craig_m67]

There's a gent in the Uk who documented the build of a replica Lancia Stratos to which he fitted a turbo'd Busso 3.2 from memory.. Easily saw 500ponies (from memory) before things started to get stressed (g'box, etc).  Pretty sure there was something in PistonHeads about it.

He had a lot of engine build info and pics at the time... Great read

Some info here too (ex Google)
http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/engine-conversions/174020-turbo-3-2-gta-engine-stratos-replica-6.html

[ARQ164 Shane]

Craig,
Awesome read, thanks mate

Cheers Shane

[shane wescott]

You could possibly learn something from the Supercharger Guy who has a book out for supercharging the GTV6 engine.

I did buy his book and his air intake kit (and fuel injectors off him). Seemed a knowledgeable guy.

But then a turbo may be totally different.

[ARQ164 Shane]

It's that supercharged book have a
Red 75 on the cover if so I have a copy

If anyone needs a copy pm me

Cheers Shane

[julianB]

I've got it as well if you need to borrow

[Duk]

Greg Gordon is the author.
And it is an excellent book.
The chapter on water injection is worth the purchase price alone and dispells a lot of the marketing BS that goes with water or water/methanol injection.