Failure to proceed.... 147 TS

baldrick · April 16, 2018, 09:35:30 PM

So my 147TS decided not to start after I parked up after a 30min city traffic drive to take a phone call yesterday. No funny warnings on the dash, starter motor spins engine over like a top so battery good, can't hear the fuel system pressurise but not sure I ever do even though it depressurises noisily when it gets turned off.

After about 15mins of head scratching I try it again and it starts up like nothing has happened. Bloody. Drove to my next destination about 5km away wondering if it was something obscure like the integrated alarm system volume sensor triggering (like the central locking does if you fail to lock it when you leave the car) because I was sat in the car chatting on the phone. Just as I was pulling up at my destination the engine cut out (clutch in, engine at idle) and wouldn't restart. Bloody. Anyway had coffee with friend, as one does, came back and car started first go. Drove 30mis across town to my girlfriends abode with no problems. This morning again started first turn, drove to work (35min) stopping car twice (at my house to pick up laptop'n'stuff and at a servo for fuel on the way) no problems. Drove home this evening no problems. Sat in car at home reading handbook about alarm system operation for 10 mins and again car started first turn when I tried.

If I was a betting man I would suspect the crank sensor. What other symptoms would that give? Engine spins sweetly from idle to redline at full throttle and part throttle. Rev limiter kicks in as one would expect. Up to this point it has been a perfect starter, hot or cold. The weather has been a bit cold and damp in Adelaide the last few days after a hot spell but I went for a " sporting" drive in the hills on Saturday in the rain and it started easily when hot and damp.

Any other ideas?

Citroënbender · April 16, 2018, 09:56:00 PM

When it cranks but won't start, is your tacho dead?

p.s. If the sensor, buy new. A used one will only get you to a more inconvenient place when it fails. Also, having run the "long cable" early type (as will be yours) a couple of times I think to make a bridging cable and use the newer style sensor, might be a nicer option. You'll swear more once, but only the once.

baldrick · April 17, 2018, 12:34:21 AM

Ill take special note of the tacho if it happens again.... but whats the betting that now I have some interest in it happening again it won't! Are the newer style sensors of which you speak a 147 part from series 2 or a JTS part? I'll order new for exactly the reasons you bring up.

Mick A · April 17, 2018, 08:45:15 PM

100% it is a crank angle sensor.

baldrick · April 18, 2018, 10:10:27 AM

Thanks Mick A and Citroenbender. Did the commute to and from work yesterday with no problems, but the idle was a little unstable at times. After I got home I let it heat soak for 10 mins then tried to start it. No start and no tacho reading as engine turned over.

New sensors ordered. Amazing how fast it went from being good to being, well, buggered. Ordered two and will keep one as an on board spare!

Citroënbender · April 19, 2018, 07:46:11 PM

I've got to lay in a spare for one of mine, too.

If you are going to adapt the "leadless" type, please advise on the correct harness plug to fit, I'm keen to know.

Either way, remember to disconnect the battery when you do the replacement!

Eper outlines the procedure, apart from the battery, it's necessary to get the flex exhaust out the way, or ideally the whole dual cat/down pipe shebang.

baldrick · April 20, 2018, 09:49:09 PM

I decided not to use the "leadless" type instead buying two brown connector OEM type sensors, although I do wish that the second sensor that I bought was of that type as I could sort out a lead at my leisure.

Why disconnect the battery? It would surprise me if that circuit was live with the ignition switched off and the key in my pocket. Still my first step was to disconnect at the brown connector on the loom above the intake manifold just to be sure.

I'm blessed with the combination of small hands and long limbs so all I did was remove the plastic engine cover (with its cool captive torx fasteners) wriggle my hand/arm past the the air mass sensor at just the right angle and reach under the starter motor to undo the 5mm allen bolt and remove the sensor. To be honest chasing the cable was a bigger PTA than the sensor.

I was happy to attempt it this way as I like disturb as little as possible in case my fiddling creates a new problem where there was previously none. Did end up with some scratches on my arm for my efforts though.

Anyway thanks for the help guys, my little 147 is running happy again!

baldrick · April 20, 2018, 10:02:03 PM

And while I have your attention, what is this? On the inlet side of the head, at the drive belt end. Water temp sensor? That its leaking onto its connector is something i'll like to fix

bazzbazz · April 20, 2018, 11:54:44 PM

That is the Variator Solenoid. When activated it directs engine oil into the Variator. The Variator is a cylindrical device mounted between the front of the intake cam & the intake camshaft pulley, as it fills with oil pressure it varies the intake cam position on the camshaft, thus giving variable cam timing.

johnl · April 21, 2018, 11:26:32 AM

'Variable', in my mind, implies that the inlet valve timing can vary infinitely within a range, but in reality it only changes from one position to another ('normal' and advanced, I think). Still a 'good thing' to have, as opposed to not (at least until the variator dies...).

Baldrick, I have to disagree that Torx fasteners are in any way 'cool'. IMO they are a PITA, especially in the smaller sizes that take very little force to self destruct either the fitting or the tool. Why is it that somebody felt a need to re-invent the wheel, when hex and Allen headed fasteners work very well already...

Regards,
John.

Citroënbender · April 21, 2018, 08:12:02 PM

I'll wear the pedant's cap this time and point out those engine cover fasteners are not Torx but Ribe type.

With the variator solenoid, I'm still keen to dissect one. That pictured has the same leak as mine, where oil pressure is escaping via the connector pins. I'd like to know why it happens to some, and moreover, if with such a leak there becomes a "buffer" of oil which impedes free movement of the solenoid plunger.

johnl · April 22, 2018, 10:05:28 AM

It's usually me that gets accused with pedantry (often with cause...). I possess no Ribe type tools, just as well that the fasteners on the engine cover work pefectly well with a 5mm allen key.

Not that it matters in my case, my engine cover lives on a shelf in my workshop. I'd rather look at the coil packs than what is in my opinion an ugly piece of superfluous plastic. Pity the actual camshaft cover isn't a more attractive aluminium casting instead of being a very utilitarian plastic carapace, but at least it's functionally unattractive...

It's possible to test the speed with which the variator acts, or that it acts at all, by artificially activating it with some wires connected to the battery. At idle, the smoothness of the idle will abruptly worsen dramatically when the solenoid is energised, and becomes just like that of a 'normal' engine that has substantial valve overlap in the cam grind, i.e. rough.

Regards,
John.

baldrick · April 23, 2018, 08:40:17 AM

The mud of pedantry sticks to me as well.... johnl from what you say re testing the variator solenoid with wires from the battery that the inlet cam is in its "retarded" position - for the lack of a better expression - with the variator unactivated and when activated the cam is "advanced", thus a car with an inactive or fritzed solenoid will idle sweetly. Shame its not the inverse as a grumpy idle would be an easy giveaway that the variator system is not working.

That being said my 147 does seem to run sweetly all the way through the rev range but as its the only TS engine I have driven I have no comparison to how it should feel if it is working as it should, or not. Did you drive the car with the solenoid wired directly to the battery?

The easy answer would be to replace the solenoid and see what happens, but none can be found to buy new for some strange reason. Maybe they never fail!

Citroënbender · April 23, 2018, 09:24:07 AM

From memory, there was a supersession on the solenoid. I won't be in a position to check for several hours.

Also, if I recall correctly, the new price is extortionate; typical automotive electrovalve pricing of $600+ per unit.

If your car runs well, don't sweat it. Just check the oil weep doesn't push all the way to the ECU connector!

johnl · April 23, 2018, 01:40:56 PM

Quote from: baldrick on April 23, 2018, 08:40:17 AM
The mud of pedantry sticks to me as well.... johnl from what you say re testing the variator solenoid with wires from the battery that the inlet cam is in its "retarded" position - for the lack of a better expression - with the variator unactivated and when activated the cam is "advanced", thus a car with an inactive or fritzed solenoid will idle sweetly. Shame its not the inverse as a grumpy idle would be an easy giveaway that the variator system is not working.

That being said my 147 does seem to run sweetly all the way through the rev range but as its the only TS engine I have driven I have no comparison to how it should feel if it is working as it should, or not. Did you drive the car with the solenoid wired directly to the battery?

It's my understanding that the inlet timing advances when the solenoid activates. So, the 'normal' inlet timing is relatively 'retarded' at relatively low rpm (when the solenoid is not activated), and advanced at higher rpm (when it is activated). However, it seems that the timing retards again above 5000 rpm (if Wikipedia is to be believed), which seems very strange to me, as I would assume less overlap would inhibit power over 5000 rpm...

I haven't tried driving with the variator 'artificially' engaged at all rpm. I would expect the low rpm overlap would result in poor low rpm power due to the overlap itself, and perhaps the lack of suitable ECU mapping for such a low rpm 'overlapped' condition (?).

My TS runs sweetly most of the time, but sometimes seems to lose power and become quite 'doughy'. This seems somewhat associated with ambient temperature, i.e. on hotter days the power can become noticably 'subdued', but not in colder ambient temperatures. When this happens it is accompanied by a change in engine note, which gets a bit quieter and less 'raspy' (I can hear my engine quite well due to having replaced one of the engine stay rubber bushes with a spherical rod end, which transmits sound more directly into the chassis structure).

This 'doughiness' seems to not happen if I disengage 'ASR' as I've habitually been doing for the last couple of weeks, but it has also not been so hot of late, so I'm unsure what is having the greater affect...

Regards,
John.