Cost of Spider sill replacement?

[Al Campbell]

I know this is like asking "How rusty is an ALFA?"

Australian delivered RHD 1975 Spider 2000 for sale in Melbourne. Presents very well (don't they all), bubbling along bottom of drivers door, right sill looks great from outside, floors look perfect. Things were looking really good until front left sill around jacking point.

So question is what's the rough cost of getting both sills replaced, 2 doors skins and associated frames. I'm not talking resto, but quality permanent repair. There is bound to be more though, I only had a crawl under, lift mats, peer in boot.

Owner has new acquisition and can't fit it in his shed, so one has to go.

She looks good. Rebuilt motor and gearbox 10 years ago. Matching numbers, certificate &c... Very worth saving, problem is I may not be the one that can afford too.

[Citroënbender]

That looks to have historical repairs, would be a bare-metaller (whole car) by indication of the one picture, as you are disinclined to go this way not really suited to your quest...

[Al Campbell]

That could be right, there did appear to be wide overlapping layers on the underside that didn't look right.

[Citroënbender]

I'd take a rust-free US delivered left hooker over a rusted RHD any day.  The earlier Spider project car DNA Dave sold, was an utter pearler.

[Craig_m67]

To do it properly .....

Replacement sheet metal is available ClassicAlfa, Alfaholics, Highwood, EBSpares, etc
(all UK, 3days shipping, brilliant service from all). 

Expect to buy:

Front arch patch patch (behind front wheel) - $50./
Outer sill - $70./
Middle sill or A-frame repair panels and perhaps inner sill (rust dependant) - $220./
Rear arch patch panel (front of rear wheel) - $80./
Floors (rust dependant)

For both sides

My guy (knows Alfa's) quoted 40hrs for this, I stopped counting over a year ago 
It's faster to fit new (whole) reproduction panels as per the factory.
Cost will be dependant upon labor charges from your body shop, anywhere between $50-$150./hr

Find somebody who knows the 105 chassis.. they can just get on with it
(instead of staring at it and trying to understand it on your dime)

Fitting whole panels is faster (cheaper labor) than cutting and welding in patches
Expect rust elsewhere (rear arches, rear parcel shelf, front radiator/chassis support, bottom the doors..)

Ask me how I know....


(The layers of panels in that sill photo look correct, there are three pieces spot welded together, the photo shows the rectangular drain holes etc.. it hasn't been bodged too much - it is rusty as f#ck though)

I wouldn't buy (and convert a) LHD car in Aust. that was originally available here.. no value at all in my opinion.  Alfa's rusted in the US just as quickly... any car without provenance of these repairs will need them at some stage.. they all rust from the inside out.

[Citroënbender]

Who said anything about converting a car?

These were designed as LHD, inherently there would be less compromises to layout and function this way.  Being an historic, a left steer car would be suited to registration with no need for converting to RHD. 

Rust, well, perhaps I should have been more articulate - I have seen plenty of examples across marques, of cars delivered in "dry" states of the US, that have barely any corrosion (other than literal surface rust) after 40+ years.  Paint is usually gone, but that helps honesty of condition anyway.  My own observation with Oz delivered cars (again, across marques) is that both a humid climate and frost conspire to rust then "wedge" corrosion into serious realms.  Cars from the Riverina and South Oz seem to be among the best preserved and they are getting ever rarer. 

Edit: https://bringatrailer.com/alfa-romeo/

[rowan_bris]

There are plenty of cars from the US that have come here and they are very very good from a rust point of view but for some strange reason they are worth nothing even when properly converted.  That makes it hard to justify spending any money on them.  I would buy a car here that has been well enough looked after that it doesn't need sills.  There are a number of them around too, but they are expensive at the moment.  I have owned a number of them before that have never had sills and didn't need them.

[Citroënbender]

I hear you on the apportionment of low value; it's an odd situation - you'd be old enough to remember the stigma of US emission-controlled motors, unattractive uniform bumper heights and the extra side marker lights - maybe that taint lingers?

Perhaps also, the classic Alfa owner profile in Australia is not someone subconsciously (or even openly!) in love with Americana almost to the point of trying to be American (cf Chev badges on a Holden )?

[lombardi]

I owned a series 3 spider US import with the rubber rear spoiler plus,, with factory Bosch fuel injection, ---now own a series 2 1974 as x factory twin carbs .

Both are beaut cars to drive ,, but the sound and rawness of the series 2 is something unique n sublime ,, 

[Al Campbell]

OK plenty of valuable input here. With this car I looked at the drivers side door was one row of bubbles along the bottom of the door. The RHS sill looked fine from the outside, but I would have it checked anyway if I was getting rust removed. I had a mirror and looking at that LHS sill at the inside edge from underneath all I could see was oxide, no paint. I lifted carpets and mats as much as I could and all I saw was paint. I didn't go any further and  start looking at cross members or wheel arches. I've been assuming that a Spider is out of my reach, they may be. Maybe I should start looking at Fiats. I could go and buy a very nice MX5 for < $20k, and it would be an excellent car, but I probably don't need to tell anyone on this site that driving it would not do anything to my feelings like an ALFA would. The ~$69,000 good spiders certainly are out of my reach and I'm not sure they appreciate much from those regions. But what I'm hearing is that finding a car with good sills &c... is possible. I'd consider replacing the rubber bumpers on this one with less hideous ones (probably not an easy job) if it had no structural rust, but I would also be open about that when passing it on. But those strips crudely screwed to the sills of this particular example has the marshalls madly waving black flags for me. It's in Melbourne, maybe I should have a quick look.
And you should see what somebodies done to the cam cover:

https://www.tradeuniquecars.com.au/detail/alfa-romeo-spider-640728

[Al Campbell]

OK I'll put it out there, there was a restored Series 2 spider at a dealer (I think it was the mob that have a white Duetto for sale at the moment) for <$70k. Over say the next 10 years would a restored spider appreciate from there? or is that about the upper limit here in Australia?

[rowan_bris]

DO you mean the red one that sold for $69,000 in Melbourne?

[Craig_m67]

Did this one sell ?

https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/details/Alfa-Romeo-1600-1967/OAG-AD-16705688?Cr=3&fbclid=IwAR2-11R9DbyuSIgoSySjX-CjTynXzurL_XqqRDFKtGPiXXYD_Tkg-i3pW0c


I really like the seats, would love to know what they are, where they're from
It's #55, mine is #57...


What's your budget Al?  I am sure we can find you a series 2 Spider that you can have restored and then be confident the body will last ... anything else is a bit of a gamble (in my opinion)

[Al Campbell]

DO you mean the red one that sold for $69,000 in Melbourne?

- Yes I did.  The Duetto/Boat Tail are for most the true Icon, the very definition of the model and I put forward the idea that they may always climb in value. But the Kamm tail models while still retaining most of the beauty, could be considered as the model that aspirational owners would buy as they were priced out of the Duetto marke, but has their appeal peaked?

[Al Campbell]

DO you mean the red one that sold for $69,000 in Melbourne?

- Yes I did.  The Duetto/Boat Tail are for most the true Icon, the very definition of the model and I put forward the idea that they may always climb in value. But the Kamm tail models while still retaining most of the beauty, could be considered as the model that aspirational owners would buy as they were priced out of the Duetto marke, but has their appeal peaked?

Tricky question Rowan. OK full disclosure: I'm not a wealthy man. The red '75 was part of a collection of 7 ALFAs and his most recent acquisition, a unique and more modern special ALFA (I drooled when I saw it) doesn't fit in his storage is, so one item has to go. I'm not in that league. No debts, house owned, Uh oh Divorce settlement - all of a sudden biggest mortgage in my life when I'm in the twilight of my career, but... I have the borrowing power to add on a bit for a garage big enough to work on a classic car, the Ducati and a small racing dinghy, with also an allowance for a classic car. But I'm doing it thew wrong way around, I haven't built the garage yet. But make hay while the sun shines, if there's a car that might be the one, get it now an store until the workshop is built. I have been suffering my "Specification creep" and moving up the scale. Where am I going? Wel the seller when I said that I couldn't afford the fix that that car deserved he said he was willing to drop the price as he needs to sell. Is asking 37,500. I have that much now and can borrow more. If he dropped by $5k and a quality, but not back to bare metal rust removal was (guessing) $10,000 and another (guessing $5k) on seat retrims and another $5k on various fixes and then I get laid off the next month, will I be able to sell a car that "Owes me" $53,000 for that or more. I don't feel comfortable with those figures, but could do it. I doubt you could even bother asking this question about a Fiat 124 spider.

As for converting a solid LHD? Would have no issue with that at all.

So if I have to nail my colours to the mast? If I could end up with a rust free shell with a presentable paint job for under $40,000? I could probably live with that.

P.S. There is '89 Porsche 944 S2 on the market for $36,000. That would handle very well, have more acceleration and is not too exoctic to still have a fair bit of maintenance done by me. But it's not beautiful and I suspect doesn't have "soul". Rare model though, so would probably hold value if looked after, perhaps I should take a trip to WA and take it for a drive...

P.P.S. My bike is a Ducati Monster. There is no doubt that there are much better Japanese bikes, but every time I ride (It's my commuter) It's a pleasure: the sound, the feel, the look the smell. Mastering the agricultural gear change. All the same things that an ALFA has, but my Subaru has little of.