dead alternator brushes; alternative brushes (147 TS Magneti Marelli alternator)

[johnl]

You don't drop the subframe, you remove the lower engine mount, giving you a large hole to work through to disconnect/undo everything. Then you support the engine with a trolley jack, undo the front engine mount (drivers side) and rotate the engine forward, pivoting on the gearbox mount, to give you the clearance needed to remove Alternator and insert new one through the same hole where you removed the lower engine mount.

My misunderstanding or misrecollection of something I read some time ago. Still seems like a mission...

What John is referring to here are the mounting bushings on the Alternator.

Yes, that one. There is only one separate steel bushing (which can be moved to adjust the width) located in one of the body arms. The other arm has a hole directly in the body casting through which the bolt passes (without a bush). Is this a common thing? I've never noticed it before on any other car, maybe because I've never before had an issue getting an alternator to fit onto its' bracket...

So the plenum is in, awaiting fixture of the throttle body tomorrow. More blood was spilled today, but at least it wasn't gushing, only the reopening of wounds from the last few days. It's just a product of tight spaces (very), sharp things, and zero visibility. Still to tighten one of the two under-plenum bolts, they're both in place (with plenty of grease on the threads) and one is tight. The other is just too hard to tighten from above, when the engine can be started I'll run the car up on ramps and tighten it from below. Filled the trolley jack with fluid today, still no joy, won't lift. Looks like time for new piston seals (again).

Decided to re-use the stock clamps for the plenum / manifold connecting tubes. The aged tubes seem likely to be brittle, and using wider clamps in the narrow clamp grooves will most probably stress them unduly and cause them to split. So, I tried to purchase some 'Clip-R' type pliers today, needless to say with no success. In the end it didn't matter, had a good look on the internet and decided it would be easy enough to modify a 'normal' pair of pliers. This I did (angle grinders are so good), and they work fine.

I used 'Aviation gasket' (non hardening sealant) on the tubes where they connect to the plenum and manifold, which should ensure the hard old rubber seals properly. The bolt under number 1 manifold runner was an utter. I ground the end conical to help it start, which did help but not as much as would have been appreciated...

The plenum does seem very secure and stable when held only by the four induction tubes and the two manifold bolts (can't make it wiggle at all). So I do wonder just how necessary the under plenum brace actually is. I have a doubt that it does all that much, especially considering that the brace incorporates a fairly soft rubber bush. I suspect that the plenum is so secure and stable already (with just the two manifold bolts and the four tubes) that the bush won't ever 'see' any significant deflection. I further suspect that if the bush does 'absorb' any movement, that such movement could still be enough to allow the plenum and / or induction tubes to crack. What I'm trying to say is that I don't think it is likely that the brace can do any significant bracing with that soft bush in it, only if the connection to the plenum were 'solid' and flex free. I could be wrong, and not willing to run the experiment...

So I'm on the home stretch with this little job. All in all, I have to say that I think I would much rather change a head gasket...

Regards,
John.

[bazzbazz]

So after all that, you REALLY think just dropping the exhaust & removing the lower engine mount is harder!      



I did an Alternator change on a GTV TS the other week, all in & all out, finished, driving down the road was 4.5 hrs. Not bragging or trying to be a smart arse, just saying I think it's easier. Seriously, the effort to remove the manifold is substantial, especially the two fixing bolts at each end that attach to the metal runner bracket, as you have mentioned, they are such utter BASTARDS to get off, they alone make me go the underneath method.

[bazzbazz]

The plenum does seem very secure and stable when held only by the four induction tubes and the two manifold bolts (can't make it wiggle at all). So I do wonder just how necessary the under plenum brace actually is. I have a doubt that it does all that much, especially considering that the brace incorporates a fairly soft rubber bush. I suspect that the plenum is so secure and stable already (with just the two manifold bolts and the four tubes) that the bush won't ever 'see' any significant deflection. I further suspect that if the bush does 'absorb' any movement, that such movement could still be enough to allow the plenum and / or induction tubes to crack. What I'm trying to say is that I don't think it is likely that the brace can do any significant bracing with that soft bush in it, only if the connection to the plenum were 'solid' and flex free. I could be wrong, and not willing to run the experiment...

Without it the plenum has a tendency to crack/split from its own weight & vibration, which results in all sorts of issues from air leaks.

Decided to re-use the stock clamps for the plenum / manifold connecting tubes. The aged tubes seem likely to be brittle, and using wider clamps in the narrow clamp grooves will most probably stress them unduly and cause them to split. So, I tried to purchase some 'Clip-R' type pliers today, needless to say with no success. In the end it didn't matter, had a good look on the internet and decided it would be easy enough to modify a 'normal' pair of pliers. This I did (angle grinders are so good), and they work fine.

Available from Supercheap -

https://www.supercheapauto.com.au/p/toledo-toledo-hose-clamp-pliers/SPO1061712.html#q=pliers&sz=12&start=72

[Citroënbender]

And a special order, so not a walk-up sale.

I know the Toolforce mobile toolies used to offer them.

At a pinch, back-ground pincers (grind off the front bevel to flush) will do the trick.

[johnl]

So after all that, you REALLY think just dropping the exhaust & removing the lower engine mount is harder!      



I did an Alternator change on a GTV TS the other week, all in & all out, finished, driving down the road was 4.5 hrs. Not bragging or trying to be a smart arse, just saying I think it's easier. Seriously, the effort to remove the manifold is substantial, especially the two fixing bolts at each end that attach to the metal runner bracket, as you have mentioned, they are such utter BASTARDS to get off, they alone make me go the underneath method.

Bazz,
Did I say that I thought the way that I have already done it would be easier than the way you suggest? I only said that from underneath as you describe still sounded like a serious mission. I don't want to ever do it again, either way, regardless of which way is somewhat quicker or easier...

Yes, the two bolts at each end of the manifold are utter bastards, but not quite the complete and utter bastards that the two under plenum bolts are. I had a lot more trouble with those. If I had this to do over again (God forbid...), I'd have a good look at the possibility of drilling the holes in the ferrules oversize to fascillitate easier insertion and thread starting of the bolts (i.e. the two bolts at each end of the manifold).

This job has taken a lot longer (in days) than it otherwise would only because my time is not completely my own. I am of an age where I find myself as carer for a geriatric parent with dementia, whose needs are very time consuming, and increasingly more so lately. I just have trouble getting solid blocks of time, so jobs get done bit by bit as opportunities present themselves...

Regards,
John.

[johnl]

Without it the plenum has a tendency to crack/split from its own weight & vibration, which results in all sorts of issues from air leaks.

Is there proof of this? Has it actually happened? Has anyone actually tried deleting the brace and had the plenum crack as a result? The bush is quite soft, I don't think it offers much support in the first few mm of movement caused by vibration (assuming that movement caused by vibration does occur), i.e. I suspect the plenum would vibrate easily if the only support in that axis were to be that bush, and what really stops it happening is posssibly the other things that are holding it in place. As I said, I'm only speculating and could be wrong.

Available from Supercheap -

I Went to AutoOne, Autopro, Autobarn, and to Supercheap. All of the 'expert staff' I spoke to said that they wouldn't stock something like that, or words to the effect. I'm shocked that I seem to have been given incorrect information...

Regards,
John.

[johnl]

At a pinch, back-ground pincers (grind off the front bevel to flush) will do the trick.

Ordinary pliers with an angled grind on the face of each jaw, rebated enough that the little hook isn't impeded as it moves past the edge of the other hook on the clip. Took five minutes to modify my least favourite pliers that I never use, and they do the job perfectly. Cost = effectively $0.00.

Regards,
John.

[Mick A]

Did the charge warning light illuminate on the dash display?

The reason I ask is that there is more than worn brushes that can cause your alternator not to charge, such as a dud diode pack!

I just don't want you to go through all the trouble of refitting everything only for it to be still faulty.

147's don't have a battery light, only a display warning. 156's have a battery light, and you are correct, 9 times out of 10, a battery light on is a regulator, and no charge with no battery light is a diode.

+ 1 for removal as you described, although I usually undo the gearbox side mount and gives me plenty of room also. Can usually have an alternator changed over in about an hour this way.

A hoist always makes things easier!

Mick.

[bazzbazz]

Can usually have an alternator changed over in about an hour this way.

I'd pay good money to see that. 

[johnl]

Can usually have an alternator changed over in about an hour this way.

Just decided that I really don't like you anymore...

I had read two stories about, and had no experience of, ways in which this could be done. I just picked a method largely influenced by a desire not to be lying on my back under the car. The plenum didn't look all that hard to take out, but then you reach a point of no return. If I knew then what I know now...

A hoist always makes things easier!

Mick.

Sure does. A lot. The rest of us struggle through with ramps and a trolley jack (in this instance one which packed up half way through the job...).

Regards,
John.

[johnl]

147's don't have a battery light, only a display warning.

Mick.

Which is simply ridiculous, considering that 99% of other cars have such a warning light and it would cost next to nothing to include. The display warning only tells you that the battery is nearly flat, not that it is not being charged. There is a significant difference in the usefullness of these two pieces of information, quite possibly the difference between getting home or to a workshop, and being stranded kilometres from anywhere...

Regards,
John.

[Citroënbender]

As a cheap backup, what about one of those voltmeters which plugs into the lighter socket?

[Bobulon]

At a pinch, back-ground pincers (grind off the front bevel to flush) will do the trick.

Ordinary pliers with an angled grind on the face of each jaw, rebated enough that the little hook isn't impeded as it moves past the edge of the other hook on the clip. Took five minutes to modify my least favourite pliers that I never use, and they do the job perfectly. Cost = effectively $0.00.

Regards,
John.

I have $7 ebay copies of the Toledo ones that work pretty well. Recently decided to "upgrade" to a set of Knipex Cobra pliers after installing some very firm silicone sleeves on my intake tubes. Imagine my delight when the almighty Knipex (RRP$80) turned out to be complete rubbish that were vastly inferior to the $7 ebay jobs. The one advantage they have is long handles giving you more leverage but I had to do what you did and reshape the jaws for them to work.

[johnl]

As a cheap backup, what about one of those voltmeters which plugs into the lighter socket?

Not seen them, but sounds too cheap and nasty, even for me...

I'd like a proper voltmeter on the dash, and proper oil pressure, and oil temperature, all nicely presented so it doesn't look shite. But I'm dreaming, I know I'll never get around to fitting any of these gauges.

Anyway, the engine runs, at last. I have 12.5ish volts without the engine running, and high 14 to low 15 volts with the engine running, so the alternator is doing something. I've idled it up to temperature, and the car is now on ramps. I'm waiting for it to cool down so I can tighten the last plenum bolt from below. So far so good, but I haven't yet driven anywhere, and I'll be carrying a spare fully charged battery around for a few days...

Regards,
John.

[Craig_m67]

As a cheap backup, what about one of those voltmeters which plugs into the lighter socket?

Not seen them, but sounds too cheap and nasty, even for me...

I'd like a proper voltmeter on the dash, and proper oil pressure, and oil temperature, all nicely presented so it doesn't look shite. But I'm dreaming, I know I'll never get around to fitting any of these gauges.

Anyway, the engine runs, at last. I have 12.5ish volts without the engine running, and high 14 to low 15 volts with the engine running, so the alternator is doing something. I've idled it up to temperature, and the car is now on ramps. I'm waiting for it to cool down so I can tighten the last plenum bolt from below. So far so good, but I haven't yet driven anywhere, and I'll be carrying a spare fully charged battery around for a few days...

Regards,
John.

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