Checking VIN and Chassis Number - 105 Spider

[JohnLW]

Hi all,
A couple of rookie questions as I'm looking to buy my first Spider.
I haven't yet seen the car, am going from pictures sent by the owner.
I am looking at a 1972 2Ltr Series 2, supposedly originally Aus delivered, I want to check authenticity/history.
Chassis number stamp is AR2470331, this is also stamped on the Compliance plate which is dated 6/72. This number looks about right, based on that of other cars for sale online of same age/spec.
The VIN shown on the registration paper is AR0051250357. However, the AlfaStorico website say the VIN should be 17 digits - so mine is short? Also, previous research indicated that for a 2 Ltr 105 Spider the first 7 character should be AR01500 - is that correct?

All expert advice greatly appreciated, thanks.

[poohbah]

I don't know if 105 series had more numbers, but when I asked for info on my Alfetta a few years back, I was provided the following vin and engine no:  ZAR 11637003015022 and the engine number AR 073000.

The VIN is 17 digits if you include the ZAR designation. But on my rego, the VIN is abbreviated to 03015022.

You can directly request details of the car from Alfa's CentroDocumentazione, but I understand they've started charging +30 Euros for the basic details. It was free when I asked about my car.

[aggie57]

On an Alfa of that age just go off the chassis number.  Did they even have a VIN?  As far as I know my '72 GTV doesn't and I've owned it for 37 years.

[giulia_veloce]

JohnLW

The Vin number you quoted is actually the engine number
You Engine number is AR00512-50357
The Vin number is AR2470331

AROCA National Data Base says its a 1972 model

The registration papers are Wrong.

All Australian delivered cars started getting Aust compliance plates from 1970 slowly.
Mostly ALL Australian delivered cars had them by 1972

So,,if the Spider has an Australian compliance plate,,with a manufacture date and the chassis number on it is the same as what is on the cars Firewall..its correct.

Be aware,,I have see a few Alfas with a Compliance plate from another car
Hope this helps

[giulia_veloce]

aggie57,

Your Chassis number IS your vin number for your 72 GT Veloce

[JohnLW]

Thanks everyone, this info is great.
I feel more confident regarding the provenance of the car.
giulia_veloce, I wasn't aware of the AROCA National database.  Are you saying this car is actually listed on the database, if so, any other info shown, is it possible for me to view the database and check this car?
Thanks again.
John

[GTV-074]

JohnLW,

Just to confuse things, I believe (others with more knowledge here can confirm) PininFarina, who made the bodies, also stamped their own number.

You can see it on the boot floor in between the the tank & spare wheel well. I've cut a couple of pics from a 72 Spider that's currently for sale on CarSales. Number isn't too far
from the one you have mentioned.

Cheers.

[GTV-074]

Other pic....

[aggie57]

aggie57,

Your Chassis number IS your vin number for your 72 GT Veloce

Actually, no (and I don't often disagree with what you say).  The VIN is an ISO standard dating from 1981, preceded by a US domestic standard dating from the 50's:

https://www.iso.org/standard/52200.html
https://www.carfax.com/blog/vin-decoding
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_identification_number

It's quite different to the chassis number.

[GTV-074]

Alister, I think Rob is right and so are you!

The chassis number was what the local authorities used as the 'vin' if yo want to call it that.

The number on the compliance plate if it has one, should match the stamping on the firewall.

Heck, FORD had it right, to confuse the you know what out of people. When I went to register my 1974 Falcon XB GT (their other cars were similar)
they have a 3 way check. VIN/Chassis & Compliance plate & Engine number all matched!

The poor girl at VicRoads didn't believe it was correct and double checked when we went back inside after the under bonnet inspection!

Cheers.

[JohnLW]

Thanks GTV-074, I wasn't aware of the boot floor stamped number, but to my knowledge its not recorded anywhere for registration or to track the vehicle's history so I haven't paid it any attention.
An yes, the Compliance plate image you posted shows a VIN # of 2470352, so again the car I'm looking at being 2470331, with same shown on its compliance plate appears to be in the right number range to be true to its description as given to me.  Cheers, John.

[aggie57]

Alister, I think Rob is right and so are you!

The chassis number was what the local authorities used as the 'vin' if yo want to call it that.

The number on the compliance plate if it has one, should match the stamping on the firewall.

Heck, FORD had it right, to confuse the you know what out of people. When I went to register my 1974 Falcon XB GT (their other cars were similar)
they have a 3 way check. VIN/Chassis & Compliance plate & Engine number all matched!

The poor girl at VicRoads didn't believe it was correct and double checked when we went back inside after the under bonnet inspection!

Cheers.

Funny story!  Also funny that in those days the Victorian Certificate of Registration listed the engine number but not the chassis number.  I have the one for my GTV from Feb '84 and no sign of the chassis number anywhere.

Over here in the US people get totally confused about this, you see people looking for a 17-digit VIN on all sorts of older non-US manufactured cars.  Even Reeves Callaway (he of Callaway turbo GTV6 and more recently Corvette fame) didn't know that GTV6s had a chassis number stamped on the firewall.  When he was recently communicating with the archives in Milan to track down the cars he modified he sent them a list of VINs and they wrote back saying 'no, no - we need the chassis numbers".  I know this because we had this conversation at Cars and Coffee in December so I opened up the bonnet on a GTV6 and showed him. 

[giulia_veloce]

Hi JohnLW

The Club database is what members information they provide when Joining the Club
Engine and chassis numbers and year models etc.
When a new member,,or an existing member submits their information,,its recorded and put in the relevant sections.

All credit for this was done by National Register co ordinator Tony Mcone.
Tonys heath has deteriorated lately,,and His daughter Francis Guiness and I have continued to keep records.
It Is Not available to anyone,,,but you can contact either of us for verification if needed.
We can Only verify engine numbers,,Chassis numbers and year models that AROCA members gave us.
A verified chassis number is given,,added to the database and instantly put in order.
Example,,if a  1970,,,,1750 105 was added with chassis number, AR1451234,its put in the right place,,but has a 2 litre engine number,,that is also recorded as true,due to being swapped at some stage. 

johnLW...the car you mention is not on the database,,but is between 2 chassis numbers as a 1972 model that is on the data base
The only way we can add it is if you supply me the information.
It helps track down how many cars are still out there.
Being an Alfa Romeo Specialist who records chassis numbers and engine numbers from cars that I see here,,I just add them to the database.
I do record members and non members cars.
Francis Guiness has access to the current new members data base,,but I dont.
But we both record what we find to add to it.
So johnLW,,it was easy for me to verify your car and chassis number,,engine number and year model from the data base.
The database was given to me by his daughter Fransis to keep Tony Mcones great work to continue and help AROCA members.

If any members want to add their Alfa chassis numbers and engine numbers and year models to the database,,i will add them with Strickt confidentiality.

JohnLW..I have added the Spider to the register with the information you provided at the start.
Robert

[JohnLW]

Thanks for clarifying that Robert, once I am successful I'll send you through the details of the vehicle (if its not this one, which you now have to add to the database). John