Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6

[Chet]

Does anyone know for sure which Holden timing chain kits fit the 3.2 V6?  Found 2 type for the 3.6L Alloytec.  One with 3 Morse chain and one with 1 Morse chain and 2 roller chain.  Which one does the Alfa use? 

Sorry, can't work out how to post pictures for reference

[Stu159]

Hi Chet,

I have absolutely no experience in dealing with Mace (Australian company), but I have read that V6 owners in the UK are happy with the performance cams they sell for the V6. I also own a V6 but haven't needed to replace the timing chains yet. I'm also not a mechanic 
Good luck

https://www.maceengineering.com.au/MACE-PREMIUM-TIMING-CHAIN-KIT-WITH-GEARS-ALFA-ROMEO-159-JTS-939A0-32L-V6

Stu

[Chet]

Thanks Stu. 
Does anyone know which is better, the Mace kits or original GM kit?

[Colin Edwards]

INA is an extremely reputable bearing manufacturer.  Their needle roller bearings and cages etc are second to none.  I have used their roller cages in 17000rpm 2 stroke kart race engines for ever. 
Anything with their name on it should be trusted.

The JTS chains wear due to lack of good quality lubricant brought about by soot created by DI engines such as the JTS. 
Its highly unlikely timing chains "stretch" as some claim.  If they did indeed stretch due to "soft" inner link or outer link material the pins would pull out causing catastrophic failure as opposed to simple elongation due to wear. 

[Stu159]

but it also says "with a full exhaust" Tango. On a Commodore, that would be a cost effective exercise, different story on a 159 though. We're talking Auto Delta for headers, imported and fitted. The Mace cams are a decent price, but add on the headers etc and you're talking a very expensive 30kw, as nice as it would be.

Stu

[Stu159]

maybe try the UK forum to see if you can locate someone that has fitted them Tango?

On the sound / idle issue, which would be worse, an Alfa sounding like an old school v8 or a GM engine trying to sound like an Alfa? 

Stu

[bazzbazz]

True. But it's still a $650 upgrade plus a couple of labour hours so say $1k.

A couple of hours hours work!??   

I'd pay good money to see that.

[Ascari32]

Does anyone know for sure which Holden timing chain kits fit the 3.2 V6?  Found 2 type for the 3.6L Alloytec.  One with 3 Morse chain and one with 1 Morse chain and 2 roller chain.  Which one does the Alfa use? 

Sorry, can't work out how to post pictures for reference

The 3.2 JTS is effectively the LLT version of the Holden. And a very good engine at that. What Alfa did was not up to their normally high standards for engines. Timing chains suffer as a consequence.

However, Mace kits are very good. They have revised them to improve their durability. I have their kit fitted to my 3.2 JTS with C.B. cams, Autodelta headers and Supersprint Sports cat/exhaust system.

True, I have made other modifications to my engine to balance oil flow/pressure across the block, which has improved timing enormously. But that aside, Mace are to be recommended, not least because the quality is so good for the money. There again, Alfa charge so much for everything, anyone's kit is a bargain by comparison.

Do the cams, headers and the exhaust and you will see north of 300bhp. The engine will then do justice to the superb 159 platform - better than the Brera.

However, unless the engine is out for a rebuild, it is an expensive exercise.

[Ascari32]

True. But it's still a $650 upgrade plus a couple of labour hours so say $1k. But it does say something about a lumpy idle and hopefully that's an option. Don't need the alfa pretending to be an old school v8 . It seems like the best value for money mod that I have come across.

Would a set of cams means that you would have to run in the modified class at the alfa sprints? I guess a lumpy idle would give it away . Unless you just say it's an alfa idling problem...

I doubt there is any truth in the "lumpy idle"; the lift is the same, the duration is even less than Alfa's standard cams and the engine has NVO at idle. So unless they have changed the lobe centres, they won't sound particularly sporty. Plus, unless those Manifold cats are replaced, they will just choke whatever one does with the engine!

[Ascari32]

Hi Chet,

I have absolutely no experience in dealing with Mace (Australian company), but I have read that V6 owners in the UK are happy with the performance cams they sell for the V6. I also own a V6 but haven't needed to replace the timing chains yet. I'm also not a mechanic 
Good luck

https://www.maceengineering.com.au/MACE-PREMIUM-TIMING-CHAIN-KIT-WITH-GEARS-ALFA-ROMEO-159-JTS-939A0-32L-V6

Stu

Hi Stu - how's it going?

To my knowledge, on the general Alfa Forum UK, no one has fitted Mace cams to their 3.2 JTS. Indeed, as Far as I am aware I am the only guy to fit C.B. Special camshafts and they had been sitting on E.B.'s shelves for many year, until I came along.

Having fitted C.B. to five previous Alfa's, I had a pretty good idea just how good they would be.

The Mace cams look really good value but their lift is the same and their duration less than Alfa's. So, unless they have moved their lobe centres, the NVO: 2.5deg. static valve timing will have increased.

To gain more power, all things being equal, one needs higher lift or duration - or a combination thereof.

I'd like to get my hands on a set of Mace cams to test. I have a pair of tools to enable me to swap out cams easily and it would be an interesting exercise - but I doubt Mace would oblige.

The Man cats need to go to improve breathing, although Autodelta say they can be replaced with the engine in situ, it is a time consuming exercise. The central Alfa cat is rubbish, with a capital "R" and best replaced with a sports cat, where both banks conjoin at the input and not the outlet. That will make tremendous difference to scavenging/gas flow characteristics. And the car will sound much better at higher revs.

I could go on. But it seems this topic is really just a talking point as it is clear, from the amount needed to be spent puts people off. It is no different on the UK forum, so cat-back systems will remain all the rage. Which is fair enough, at least it gives folks the opportunity to personalise their cars, even if it makes very little tangible difference to performance.

Aside from the price of the Mace cams, there may be an extra bonus in that they could be reground to change the valve timing - something that C.B. can do with theirs.

The Alfa cams can be reground for more torque, but not power - maybe an extra 1 hp at best.

But, regrinding for more torque means increasing the duration and that would rid the 3.2 JTS of NVO and definitely make it sound more Characteristically Alfa - esque!

[Ascari32]

Does anyone know for sure which Holden timing chain kits fit the 3.2 V6?  Found 2 type for the 3.6L Alloytec.  One with 3 Morse chain and one with 1 Morse chain and 2 roller chain.  Which one does the Alfa use? 

Sorry, can't work out how to post pictures for reference

I hope you have finally got your answer to the question of which kit to use. However, to clear up any ambiguity, the 3.2 JTS uses a morse type primary chain - from the crankshaft to the two "Idlers" above.

These Idlers are driven by the morse, but take their drive via "Roller" chains to the Camshaft VVT Phasor Sprockets.

If you intend to replace the chains, it is wise to do all tensioners as well as these are the fundamental reason why the chains stretch in the first place {unable to maintain tension over an extended period}. True cause is poor oil pressure, principally on the lower timing (morse) chain tensioner.

But that is another story.

I bought my kit directly from Mace who I found to be very helpful. The 3.2 JTS is the LLT version and their kits are specific to each variant - good to see a company still supplying a dwindling number of cars. I should also point out that the original tensioners fitted were prone to failure, with dire consequences. The Mace kit is updated and of high quality.

Kits can be bought on the internet, however, they can be from dubious sources. Buying direct from Mace I felt the safest option.

Enough free advertising for them - as I am sceptical  of the camshaft claims.

They could always let me have a set to test?

[Ascari32]

Hi Chet,

I have absolutely no experience in dealing with Mace (Australian company), but I have read that V6 owners in the UK are happy with the performance cams they sell for the V6. I also own a V6 but haven't needed to replace the timing chains yet. I'm also not a mechanic 
Good luck

https://www.maceengineering.com.au/MACE-PREMIUM-TIMING-CHAIN-KIT-WITH-GEARS-ALFA-ROMEO-159-JTS-939A0-32L-V6

Stu

Wow 30rwkw with the cams. Didn't know that was an option.

https://www.maceengineering.com.au/epages/mace.sf/en_AU/?ObjectPath=/Shops/mace/Categories/Vehicles/Alfa_Romeo/159


"They Must Have Changed Their Lobe Centres".

I have been puzzling over Mace Cams for my JTS and had more detail been available, would have considered them - particularly given the cost of CB's.

They give so little away, so let's look at what information there is, taking the inlet cam first.

Alfa's is 254deg., opening at 11.5deg. atdc. Mace is 210deg. That is 44deg. less duration than Alfa's!

If lobe centres stayed the same, that would mean the Mace was opening 22deg. later than Alfa's? - 33.5deg. atdc?

Take the exhaust: -

Alfa's is 250deg. and closes at 9deg. atdc. Mace's is 210deg. That is 40deg. less duration than Alfa's!

If lobe centres stayed the same, that would mean Mace's was closing 20deg. earlier than Alfa's!!!!!!

Therefore, assuming Lobe centres stayed the same, a 3.2 JTS, fitted with Mace cams would have static timing angles of: -

11deg. (9-20)  btdc exhaust valve closes. 33.5. (11.5+22) atdc inlet opens. That results in a 44.5deg. of Negative Valve Overlap!!!!!!!!!!!!

Unless my calculations are wrong and I don't believe they are, they "Must" have moved the lobe centres.

If they remain the same, and the engine "Was" able to tick-over, it would be very lumpy indeed. And even more gutless. More to the point, the engine would not make 30 Kw more power, regardless of what exhaust system was fitted.

I don't believe it would meet emissions standards either - well certainly not European.

So, in the firm belief, Mace are an Honest Company, they must have moved the Lobe centres, they just aren't telling us!

For a Characteristic "Lumpy Idle", I believe the valve timing has changed to create PVO - Positive Valve Overlap.

However, They definitely would not move the valve timing to "Outside the 3.2 JTS's Maximum Advance/Retard Angles".

So what might they have done?

Well, "Imitation is the Sincerest Form of Flattery" and it is not uncommon for manufacturers to buy competitors products, to produce their own in completion.

With this in mind, Colombo Bariani maintained lobe centres, but increased duration. This took inlet opening time from 11.5deg. atdc to 0.5deg. btdc.; the exhaust from 9deg. atdc to 23deg. atdc., closing time took it to 23deg. atdc. Creating 23.5deg. of PVO!

So Mace could safely do the same, acknowledging their lower duration, they could still move their lobe centres to open the inlet at 0.5deg. BTDC and close their exhaust at 23.0deg. ATDC., creating the same PVO.

I think there is a little more to it than this, but generally, it must be what they have done. it still puts the 3.2JTS below 300 bhp, and there must be other factors involved if what they say is to be believed, given the do not increase lift, which would give more power and they do not increase duration which would improve the top end.

So come on Mace - tell us the whole story!

[Stu159]

Hi Ascari,

Yep, I'm all good, well locked down here good.........I suppose. Gladys seems to think I'm OK? I never thought I'd wish I was playing first grade rugby league, but at the moment, it's considered an essential service??? Like Doctors & nurses.....

I see you're in your usual fine form with those cracker posts!

In reference to the UK forum, I read it ages ago. There was an ongoing debate where Alfa fans were going at it with people saying the CB cams were better and someone chimed in and said they wouldn't be so sure that an Italian company would make better cams for an Aussie engine, than an Aussie company could. The next comment was something along the line of plenty of our members are running Mace cams and are really happy with them. They didn't actually state that they were in the UK though, so they could be from anywhere. Sorry, I don't have a specific link but I do recall I found it with a google search. I think this is it https://www.alfaowner.com/threads/3-2-159.826097/page-2 there's also a lot of carry on about the engine also, so you'll love it. It's an extensive thread. If it's not this particular thread it was somewhere else on this forum, I think? Either way there'll be plenty there of interest to you

Cheers
Stu

[Ascari32]

Glad to hear it Stu. Me? Just trying to maintain my sanity, although it may drive others crackers.

Yes, I was involved with those posts but things have moved on quite a bit since; i.e., the C.B.'s were a pipe dream at the time given they are only made to order. However, I found E.B. Spares had a set buried amongst their old stock. They just could not sell them. So I think they bit my hand off when I bought them.

However, I have been on the U.K forum for over a decade and nobody stuck their head above the parapet to say they had bought Mace cams. I got my timing chain kit, a new crankshaft and shells from Mace and I regard then highly.

But the angles they quote for their cams and the fact that they are the same lift as Alfa's suggests the only way they could improve performance is by moving the lobe centres. However, I am extremely sceptical about their claims unless they include a host of other changes: headers, exhaust and maybe remap.

As far as the 3.2 JTS engine is concerned, one specialist independent said he would not rebuild mine, citing the cost of parts, if indeed he could find them. Another said he rebuilt two, one for a long term customer and another for a friend and lost a shed load of money on them - he felt he couldn't pass the cost onto the customers and took the hit.

Dealerships wouldn't go further than sell me a new engine at £16,500 or a reconditioned one -bought in for £12,500.

I found that the UK Forum guys, and this is not a criticism, stick to suspension mods, cat - backs and incidentals on the whole. None to my knowledge have undertaken to rebuild or modify their engines. To be fair, I think you have more 3.2 JTS's in Aus. They are being scapped at a hell of a rate here in UK. I think mine is one of only half a dozen currently on the road, the Q4 is incredibly rare.

Cams, as far as the average punter is concerned, need to be done when timing chains are replaced. That adds to the cost of the whole process and there is little confidence/belief, they will make a difference. However, I had C.B.'s on five occasions and I know how good they are. To get a set made by C.B., you need to splash out £2,200 + vat and it is no less expensive on Mainland Europe or the Far East. And they do sell!!!!!!!

Mine, to my knowledge are the only ones on a 3.2 JTS in Britain as far as I am aware.  But the C.B.'s won't perform anywhere near their best without changes to the manifolds, the exhaust system as a whole and the VVT system.

They can never give their best if the camshaft angles aren't maintained operationally - and that means improvement to the timing chain tension - improving oil flow pressure and the VVT system.

It is a hell of an expense and folks can't/won't pay, given the cost is so indeterminate as far as garages in UK are concerned. In esence, it ends up as a purely hypothetical debate with lots of speculation about gains and the old chestnut "Remapping".

However, there are only two published Dyno - runs of the 3.2 JTS on the Forum - mine and a Fellow Australian Compatriot who had the balls to fit my C.L.L.S, and did my VVT mods. And to the guy's eternal credit, I asked him to undertake two Dynamometer runs - pre and post, which he was happy to do. Top Man!

There are none of an engine with Mace cams fitted - and one would think, if anyone is that serious, they would want to know!

The big problem wrt the camshafts was overcome when I designed a pair of cam - sprocket carriers which allow the cams to be swapped out whilsts the chains remain in situ. But still, I can well understand the reluctance to do anything given the 159, Brera and Spider are long obsolete and spares incredibly difficult.

The Twin cat under the car is just as problematic as the manifold cats and this leads to even more expense. All in all, it just isn't worth it, despite it being an important exercise for me, given I am retired.

But there is so much to like about the car, it's almost as if the engine is superfulous. Rip out the 3.2 JTS and fit a 3.0 Busso, from a 75 with a transaxle and it would be a better motor than it is with the Standard 3.2 JTS engine. And rear wheel drive to boot!

But hell, when it is modified, the 3.2 JTS is a cracker - I wouldn't want anything else under the bonnet - now that the work has been done.

Of course, Mace could always supply me with a set of cams and I would bench test them and provide the results. Jeez - you could not blame anything else if they failed to perform, given the extesive modifications on my car - all in the right areas.

So come on Mace, stick a set in the post to me!

     

[Ascari32]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xjer44r4m8

A little distraction - the real reason Alfa Survived and Lancia did not - "Limone", and you can't get a more authoritive figure than Sergio.

And the Historical source of the winning 155 engine, as well as the reason why the 159 was dead in the water, wrt racing. Its potential for being developed for competition is roundly "Scotched". So that ghost is well and truly laid to rest!

https://youtu.be/DRcFpmQL3bc

Fiat just do not come out of these interviews well at all, although Limone speaks dispassionately about the issue. Given the 155 engine came from Lancia, which in itself came from Peugeot, it is perhaps fortunate the French are once again involved. Let's hope too, they restore Lancia to their rightful place - amongst the "Creme' de la Creme'".



Davide Cirone performs an important role with his interviews. We need the kind of history the likes of people like Sergio Limone can give us. It is the only way we can prevent their contribution and the history they have, from becoming lost.


Somehow, I can't see Clarkson performing such a role - his ego continually gets in the way of everything. Maybe James May, but Clarkson - no!