3l GTV6 PRC project

[aggie57]

Thanks Alister, 24 valve is still upside down on the engine stand. I have been postulating on the oil pump and sump. I have worked out it would be better to do away with the original pump and have bought a Barnes 3 stage scavenge pump and am going to dry sump it. Hope to get it ready for the transplant over winter. Headers are the other big issue. Still thinking about that. Probably build my own out of mandrel bends. All good fun

That'd certainly give you better ground clearance.  By memory the rear main bearing caps are almost touching the inside of the standard alloy sump which in turn has really only working clearance to the front cross member.  Take that plus the need to keep the tailshaft well aligned (even with dead guibo's!) and I'd imagine there's not much opportunity to lower the engine.  Is that really a consideration in rallying though?  Certainly for circuit use it would be.

[redalfaracing]

That'd certainly give you better ground clearance.  By memory the rear main bearing caps are almost touching the inside of the standard alloy sump which in turn has really only working clearance to the front cross member.  Take that plus the need to keep the tailshaft well aligned (even with dead guibo's!) and I'd imagine there's not much opportunity to lower the engine.  Is that really a consideration in rallying though?  Certainly for circuit use it would be.

Alister, ground clearance isn't the name of the game. I am not trying to lower the engine, although the thought of no sump to collect stray rocks is a big plus.

And, you may remember that i will not be using guibo's (dead or alive). I have a carbon fibre tail shaft ready to go with an engine adapter already made.( thanks Tom)

If you have a look at these pics



You will notice that the engine i have ( from a 166) has the oil pump mounted under the main caps and chain drive off the crankshaft. Beauty i thought, Until i went to fit the 116 sump.


The pickup, which is an integral part of the pump, doesn't really fit into the 116 sump. Not by a long way.
Given the work involved in modifying the pump, it seemed just as easy to remove the pump and dry sump it. So i got me one of these,


now i just have to take the 166 sump and turn that into a dry sump. couple of hours with a grinder, guilotine, folder and tig and i have a sump that all the bolt holes line up on, wont get smashed by rocks, and will add a few KW's to the engine.

Plus, i will have more room to run my headers.

Just have to find the time.

[aggie57]

Perfect sense. I'd heard people talk about the chain driven pumps but never seen one.

When I put a 3 litre from a 164 into my 1st GTV6 way back in '96 the nuts on the rear bearing cap fouled the 116 sump. Only took 5 mins with a dremel to fix but shoes just how tight things were in there.

[redalfaracing]

Provisional results are available on the HRA site,

http://hra.org.au/files/Millard%202011%20Prov%20Results.pdf

Still winning it!

[Sheldon McIntosh]

When I put a 3 litre from a 164 into my 1st GTV6 way back in '96 the nuts on the rear bearing cap fouled the 116 sump. Only took 5 mins with a dremel to fix but shoes just how tight things were in there.

That's interesting.  I didn't have that problem, and in all the research I did I never heard of that either.  I was researching the 3 litre going into 75s, but the 75/90 wouldn't have a different sump to the GTV6 would it?

redalfaracing, there have been a few 24Vs put into GTV6s in Melbourne, Benincas and/or Hugh Harrison could advise on any difficulties I'm sure.

Can you give us any more info on the tailshaft?  I'm sure there are many people interested in something similar (once you destroy a few on rallies and then make them stronger).

[redalfaracing]

When I put a 3 litre from a 164 into my 1st GTV6 way back in '96 the nuts on the rear bearing cap fouled the 116 sump. Only took 5 mins with a dremel to fix but shoes just how tight things were in there.

That's interesting.  I didn't have that problem, and in all the research I did I never heard of that either.  I was researching the 3 litre going into 75s, but the 75/90 wouldn't have a different sump to the GTV6 would it?

Sheldon, From the info i have, the early 24valve used the same oil pump as the 116 12 valve. Some time ? Alfa changed the 24 valve slightly and 1 change was the oil pump. I don't reckon you can put the 116 12 valve oil pump in the 166 24 valve i have. I got the 166 24 valve at the right price, so i have a few $'s up my sleeve to dry sump it. I think the advantage of dry sump in a gravel rally car is worth the effort. As far as i can tell, the 116, 90 and 75 v6 sumps are identical. On the 24 valve i have, the rear bearing cap bolts are virtually flush with the bottom of the engine block.

Can you give us any more info on the tailshaft?  I'm sure there are many people interested in something similar (once you destroy a few on rallies and then make them stronger).

If you wade back through the thread you will get the info on the carbon fibre shaft.
To recap, it is out of an RX8 (manual version only) Weighs just over 5 kg's. Compare that to the 13 kg standard shaft. One piece so you can eliminate the centre bearing. I have an engine adapter made already. Still need to sort out a rear flange. I am pretty certain that a 105 came out with the same size uni cups. I need to find one to see if the 105 diff spline is the same as the GTV6 clutch shaft spline. I expect it is. Otherwise, i get a flange made with Alfa spline and mazda 4 bolt pattern. Or, I use the Mazda flange and get a clutch shaft made with a mazda spline.
I kinda lean toward this option as i am working on getting a 5 1/2 inch AP racing twin plate clutch to reduce the moment of inertia in the driveline. If i do, i will get a shaft and flywheel made in one piece, so the spline can be whatever i like. Unfortunatly AP Racing do not have Alfa clutch spline in their clutch centres. Despite my request to supply plates with blank centres, they reckon it against their company policy. BOO to them.
So, maybe i have to get a new gearbox input shaft made with maybe a ford (splutter!!) spline. They don't seem to mind you using their clutch in a shitheap, but not an Alfa.
Then, if i get a new gearbox shaft made, i can pick my gear ratios. It is all getting so complicated. It would be so much better if AP Racing played the game.

I don't think i will destroy one. Sorry if i disappoint.

below is the drawing of the twin plate ceramic clutch. 3.3 kg's goes on a flywheel 168 mm diameter. Makes for a very light setup.

[Sheldon McIntosh]

Thanks for the info, very interesting.  Will be very interesting to see the dry-sump set-up too, as lowering the V6 would be extremely beneficial in a track car, and I'm surprised it hasn't been done before.  I can't imagine that re-aligning the tailshaft would be an insurmountable task, but then again I've been wrong once before.

I don't think i will destroy one. Sorry if i disappoint.

No offence intended, I purely meant by forces beyond your control.  As we all know carbonfibre is extremely strong, but generally only in one direction.  I imagine Mazda didn't foresee their tailshaft being hit by big rocks repeatedly.

[scott.venables]

You will notice that the engine i have ( from a 166) has the oil pump mounted under the main caps and chain drive off the crankshaft. Beauty i thought, Until i went to fit the 116 sump.


The pickup, which is an integral part of the pump, doesn't really fit into the 116 sump. Not by a long way.
Given the work involved in modifying the pump, it seemed just as easy to remove the pump ....

Is it an illusion or is the the oil pick up not parallel to the bottom of the block?  Despite this, would it be feasible to make a new lower sump half that lines up with the new oil pick up?

Scott

[redalfaracing]

Scott  , it is no illusion  , In the 166 the engine is tipped forward. The pickup would then be level.
I could build a new lower sump, but it would be lower than standard, but dry sumping will be so much more fun.   

[LaStregaNera]

The other option is a 20mm thick spacer - I've been talking to a bloke in South Efrika who's done a few of these late 24valve conversions because i've got a 98 GTV v6 24valve motor that I want to put into a 116 chassis car, and they do the 20mm spacer, or a new sump. Of course, 20mm less ground clearance is a sucky option on a tarmac car, let alone a gravel rally car.
I'm not in a position to play with sumps and stuff on mine yet, but can you do me a favour and pop the perforated steel screen off the pump and snap a pic from front on with the 116 sump sitting there? I'm wondering if a flat mesh screen like the aftermarket jobbies for the 105s might save a bit of spacer thickness.

Another, super annoying thing is the factory Motronic from the late 24valvers uses a CAS mounted to the sump reading teeth on the flywheel.

[redalfaracing]

The other option is a 20mm thick spacer
Of course, 20mm less ground clearance is a sucky option on a tarmac car, let alone a gravel rally car.

Another, super annoying thing is the factory Motronic from the late 24valvers uses a CAS mounted to the sump reading teeth on the flywheel.

You are right, 20 mm more sump isn't going to work on a rally car.
I wont be using the factory Motronic ECU, but i will use the crank angle sensor. Mounting it isn't a drama at all on whatever sump i end up using. It actually uses the 2 rear sump flange holes and a couple of holes in the sump for locating pins. In the overall scheme of things, a small part of the conversion.

Here's the pic you wanted,


You can see taking the mesh screen off doesn't improve things at all.

I am sticking with the dry sump approach. The only class i can run in with the engine mod is Club Rally Car, and in that class dry sumping is allowed.

[LaStregaNera]

Awesome, thanks. The solution to the Cas appears to be using the front cover, cas mount and front pulley from a motronic 75 or a 164 (L-jet cars have the cast in bosses for the CAS mount but not tapped I believe)... of course we only got 164s with the v belt pulleys, USA got multi rib on all but the really early cars...

[redalfaracing]

These pics arrived today from a local photographer Terry Stone.
Great shots, thanks Terry






I don't remember seeing anyone with a camera, but then again, i was a bit busy.

How good do the Compomotives look!

[aggie57]

Awesome, thanks. The solution to the Cas appears to be using the front cover, cas mount and front pulley from a motronic 75 or a 164 (L-jet cars have the cast in bosses for the CAS mount but not tapped I believe)... of course we only got 164s with the v belt pulleys, USA got multi rib on all but the really early cars...

If you're after a multi rib front pulley from a US spec 164 with the crank sensor teeth I have one sitting in my garage. The crank sensor is there as well but the water pump got dumped in a past garage clean out.

Sheldon - can't say why the sump on my car fouled the rear main bearing cap. So long ago!

[redalfaracing]

The Millard Memorial results are now final. No changes, so, officially the winners.

Spent a few hours under the GTV6 today, removed the drive shaft.
This is how the donut finished the rally



There wasn't a lot left, one more tear, and it would have been "all over red rover"
Thank Hugh for a 2hd unit at the right price. Pity it came without the oil seal, the seal in the donut i removed was knackered. I'll try my good friends at BJ Bearings tomorrow see if they have something similar.
While the driveshaft is out, i'm going to get in there with the wire brush and the spray gun and tidy it up a bit. Make it look a bit nicer up on the hoist at scrutiny