HELP - timing belt broken - dealer or independant mechanic?

[patrick]

hi everyone
My first foray into owning an alfa is a 147 built in 2003. to cut a long story short, the timing belt snapped on the weekend  - i am thinking this is going to be expensive  argh
i have to decide whether to take it to my usual mechanic - likely cheaper, but part of the reason for the breakdown in the first place is the mechanics error on when the timing belt had to be replaced
OR
take it to the local alfa dealer who says they know how to do the job properly and have all the right tools.
mechanic says his labour is about $75 / hr and that alfa's is prob twice that
what should I do??

[Mat Francis]

you're right. that is going to be very expensive.

cut your losses now and get it done properly. the proper fix is ultimately going to be cheaper than have the same thing happen in the near future if he doesn't do it right, which by the sound of things already is highly likely.

[Evan Bottcher]

Your choice should be between an Alfa Romeo dealer or an independant Alfa specialist.  I wouldn't have this fixed by a non-specialist mechanic.  If you choose not to go with a dealer, check out your local Alfa club list of advertisers - they are well equipped to deal with the type of damage caused by a broken timing belt. 

If you're in Victoria, check out the list of sponsors here: Alfa club Vic Sponsors

Mmmm, bent valves!!!  Good luck

Evan.

[Gary Pearce]

There is a third choice........sue your original repairer if he has been taking money off you for regular service.

[pep105]

An alfa specialist definately, there are plenty here, only issue is you never know how much this will ultimitely cost until the head is off so you can understand the total damage caused - how many valves bent, possible piston or head damage etc.  At least you know it will be done right and there will be no future dramas - good luck hopefully its not too bad. 

[155 lover]

hi everyone
My first foray into owning an alfa is a 147 built in 2003. to cut a long story short, the timing belt snapped on the weekend  - i am thinking this is going to be expensive  argh
i have to decide whether to take it to my usual mechanic - likely cheaper, but part of the reason for the breakdown in the first place is the mechanics error on when the timing belt had to be replaced
OR
take it to the local alfa dealer who says they know how to do the job properly and have all the right tools.
mechanic says his labour is about $75 / hr and that alfa's is prob twice that
what should I do??

Take it to someone who knows about alfa's - 3 years or every 60,000kms is the golden rule for timing belts on the 147! A relativ of mine is an Alfa mechanic and believe it or not some people think this is too often to change a timing belt - one person cleverly hit 60,000 kms after 3.5 years and thought he'd leave it, at 62,000 kms it went, just like the Alfa Servive book suggested! Based on what i can remember about that particularly repair you are up from anywhere between $2,500-$4,000 depending on how much damage you have done when the belt went - sometimes you can get lucky but normally if you have bent the crap out of it you are looking at a lot of $$$ - should have changed it for a measly $1,000 service! I would seriously consider some for of conflict resolution with your mechanic! He should have pointed out to you when the timing belt was due!

[John Hanslow]

Get a few quotes from our Sponsors link.  Evan is on the money and his advice is well thought out and correct.

Just remember that sometimes other items in the engine may need attention, as as the belt has gone, then engine is damaged etc .. this indicates that there are more unknown issues due to previous lack of service.

But until the engine is pulled part, who knows !

[patrick]

Well just wanted to say thanks to all those who responded with advice. I am still considering but will go with either the alfa dealer mechanic or a specialist as suggested. For everyone's interest, the damage has turned out to be signficant, all 16 valves(?) were damaged and need replacing, and even using after market parts where the repairer says ok, will cost approx $4600 including parts, labour etc. Using new factory valves (?) the job will cost $6000 although the alfa mechanic said this is unnecessary. Based on the 13 hours of labour quoted, i could probably save up to $1000 using the independant non specialist mechanic, but given the experience with him so far I have decided the saving is not worth the risk.
On the positive side, the alfa mechanic (who does seem to know what he's talking about) says that by the time he finishes with the car it will run better than it did before the timing belt went.
Hopefully I will soon be back behind the wheel and running smoothly
thanks again everyone

Patrick

[Davidm1600]

Gees Patrick, what a bummer !! Like all who have a new model Alfa, I too am most conscious of the need to replace the belts every 60,000.  My aim in fact is to do it earlier and even more so reduce the risk.  Mind you comming originally from a twin cam Fiat history, I am well familiar on the need to replace the belts. 

Just a possible thought, given your impending engine rebuild costs, have you thought about trying to find a good second hand engine, since this undoubtedly should be a cheaper alternative and of course immediately have the belts changed.  I have on occasions seen on ebay 156s being scrapped with a good engine (supposedly) for around $2-3000.   

Could be worth checking out, plus also if there are any Alfa wreckers near where you live, or even interstate, eg. Milano Spares ??

Goodluck and hope all goes better in future with your 147.  Dave

[Jekyll and Hyde]

Just a possible thought, given your impending engine rebuild costs, have you thought about trying to find a good second hand engine, since this undoubtedly should be a cheaper alternative and of course immediately have the belts changed.  I have on occasions seen on ebay 156s being scrapped with a good engine (supposedly) for around $2-3000.   

The problem is then you have to pay fitting of said secondhand motor (and removal from your wreck) if you aren't capable of doing it yourself, and the cost ends up being more than just whipping the head off and repairing the damage.  A number of people have rung around looking for secondhand motors, and most end up in the process contacting one of the independent specialists to be found on the sponsors page.  Said specialists then will usually ask if its the cambelt that is broken when asked for a s/hand twinspark motor (that's how often this particular scenario happens!), and the owner finds that the resulting quote to repair damage from broken cambelt is actually quite a bit cheaper than the prices they've been getting for s/hand motors, and proceed to just repair it.

[1750GT]

I must admit that I agree with Dave, but further to that I can't believe that you can't rebuild the whole engine for $6K. Doesn't Alfa (dealers) carry short block engines for these vehicles because I would have thought that 6K fitted using all existing engine parts except the block should see it out?

Dont know I am probably out of touch but like David I would have thought that someone like Milano's could assist with a reasonable second hand engine as well and if your in Melbourne I would have thought that someone like Marinello's or Sportiva could assist at a more reasonable rate than 6K.

1750GT

[Davidm1600]

Thanks 1750GTV, and despite what Jekyll and Hyde suggests, given the scenario of a 6K full rebuild, I dont think that the cost of purchasing a 2nd hand engine and even paying someone to fit it will come to that sort of cost.  Let me explain and admittedly it relates to a 105 rather than a modern Alfa engine.  I needed a "new" engine for my '69 1750 GTV, after the old one died and we couldnt seperate the head from the block (had welded itself to the studs, grrr !!) anyway I managed to obtain a good (supposedly rebuilt) 1750 engine from Milanos for $1000, plus $200 shipping over to Hobart.  The cost of removing my old engine and installing the "new" one was well less than a $1000. 

In the past I would have removed and installed the engines but I don't have anywhere to work on my cars currently, nor the spare time. 

Now obviously with all the engine management systems, fuel injection, air con etc to be fiddled with I appreciate that this process would take longer for a 147 and therefore more $$$ but if you can obtain a good 2nd hand 147 engine for say $3K and have it fitted for say $1.5K you are still ahead.  If the purchase cost is less, even more so.  The equation to my way of thinking is that simple.  Dave

[Jekyll and Hyde]

Thanks 1750GTV, and despite what Jekyll and Hyde suggests, given the scenario of a 6K full rebuild, I dont think that the cost of purchasing a 2nd hand engine and even paying someone to fit it will come to that sort of cost.  Let me explain and admittedly it relates to a 105 rather than a modern Alfa engine.  I needed a "new" engine for my '69 1750 GTV, after the old one died and we couldnt seperate the head from the block (had welded itself to the studs, grrr !!) anyway I managed to obtain a good (supposedly rebuilt) 1750 engine from Milanos for $1000, plus $200 shipping over to Hobart.  The cost of removing my old engine and installing the "new" one was well less than a $1000. 

In the past I would have removed and installed the engines but I don't have anywhere to work on my cars currently, nor the spare time. 

Now obviously with all the engine management systems, fuel injection, air con etc to be fiddled with I appreciate that this process would take longer for a 147 and therefore more $$$ but if you can obtain a good 2nd hand 147 engine for say $3K and have it fitted for say $1.5K you are still ahead.  If the purchase cost is less, even more so.  The equation to my way of thinking is that simple.  Dave

Well, firstly I'm saying that you won't end up cheaper than the $4.6 figure which is mentioned using non genuine valves, which I would imagine is the option the original poster will be taking.  At $6k it may work out to be borderline, but if you can't get the job done for $4500 (or under) you are using the wrong Alfa specialist (assuming Melbourne location, may be different in other states).

Secondly, I don't believe $6k was for a 'full rebuild', I imagine that is simply to remove the head, have it checked and maybe machined, reseat the 16 new valves, and reinstall into the car with a new timing belt kit.

Thirdly, open the bonnet on your 156 and have a good look at everything under there.  Its a far cry from doing an engine in a 105, and involves dismantling half the front suspension, removing the gearbox from the car (in itself a fair job), unbolting 20 times more things than on a 105, then precariously swinging the engine around to just the right angle to get it out.  Alternatively you could attempt to remove it through the bottom by removing the entire subframe etc, but it works out just as time consuming and awkward.  Now your original suggestion involved buying a wreck to donate the engine, and obviously if the owner has to pay to have the replacement engine fitted, he sure ain't going to be pulling the donor out of the wreck, is he?  So then you have half the fitting cost again in the process of removing said donor engine....

Not to mention I doubt you'd collect even a wrecked 156/147 for $2000, and at $3000 I'd be asking serious questions about the quality of the engine in it.  These motors have a tendency to burn oil, and quite a number are starting to show serious bottom end rattles even with fairly low kms (say 100,000).  And as for buying from a wrecker.... again, if you could pick a motor up for under $3000, I'd be surprised, and asking questions.  Also don't forget the cambelt kit you'd want to be fitting (surely that lessons been learnt if you're at this stage!), you have the cost of the kit plus labor to fit that.  If you have the gearbox off and your car has done quite a few kms, it'd be pretty silly not to put a clutch in at the same time to save yourself hours of labour at a later stage when the clutch is properly buggered - after all, at this point all you'd pay is the cost of the clutch kit, since it's all got to be removed anyway....

[1750GT]

Interesting thoughts in deed from all and I don't think anyones wrong it's just where you see the value. My further point though is don't Alfa Romeo do new short block engines (my ref to short block is the main block brand new with all the internal bits but without the hang off stuff like gearbox, aircon, compressors, alternator, starter motor etc.etc.). I would have thought that if Alfa did a new short block for the car, then at an upper cost of $4.5 - $6K, I don't think it would be much more to put in a short block rather than re-building an existing engine? and you basically end up with a new engine with the exisitng stuff hanging off it?

Don't know but most Euro's offer this alternative when engines are basically trashed from this type of issue.

1750GT

[Davidm1600]

ah nope.  In the first place while I would agree with you re the significant difference between a 156 or 147 as we are talking about on this thread in referring to a 105, if you had read my comments as stated you would have seen I acknowledged the difference., but used it to merely serve as an example.   For instance if I had gone down the full engine rebuild of my 105 it would have cost me something in the order of $3K +.

Secondly, I wasnt in the slightest suggesting that this 147 owner purchase a wreck but rather simply an engine, already removed from the car.  I have seen numerous such examples on e-bay for the money I suggested and secondly I would suggest that places such as Milanos by now also are likely to have such engines readily available and merely need to be packaged up to send to the owner.  Hence no need for such extraneous costs as buying a wreck and having to remove the engine.  Given his car was in good order I doubt if a clutch job would be needed but obviously his mechanic might be in a better position to make such judgements.  And no for $3K I would expect to be getting a good condition second hand engine.  Sorry but this is my experience.

Next I would totally disagree with your comments about rattly 156/147 engines with say 100Km on the clock since not only has my 156 got 98Km on the clock but I have various mates who have 156s with similar km on the clock or more and absolutely no problems with their engines.  They run superbly.   Mine runs like clockwork (like brand new).  It is two owners from new, always serviced as required and so no rational basis for being stuffed.  Afterall 100,000km on the clock is roughly equivalent to say 60,000 m and from my experience most alfa and fiat engines will easily do over 150,000m before requiring a rebuild.   

So I go back to my point re the option of buying a second hand motor for a 147 whether twin spark or JTS as being a worthy alternative to consider.   Since $6k should actually be roughly the cost for a full rebuild not just a head job on these motors.  And lastly again if you had read my posting I too advocated doing the belts which as we all know cost roughly around a $1k.   Anyway, obviously it is up to Patrick to figure out the best option for his 147, all I was trying to add to the equation was an option that hadnt seemed to be thought of or discussed. 

The main thing is that which ever way he goes it will cost him far more than if he had had the belts done prior to the engine going bang and that really is the bummer in all of this, since it could have been avoided.  Dave