Alfa Design Criteria

[MD]

Think back and see if you can remember just what it was that made you put your hand in your wallet and fork out the hard earned cash for a bunch of suspect nuts and bolts fitted under the funny badge called Alfa Romeo.

Now that you are a seasoned owner, you sort of have a pretty good idea of what it is that you expect from a sports car that doubles up to get the groceries during the week and an ice cream on mount whatever 300 km away just for the pleasure of the drive and if they are out of ice cream that's ok because you will be back next week end just to see if the inventory has been replenished.

These days car manufacturers are producing a huge variety of cars and that includes Alfa but are they really catering for what you actually expect from a sports car? Do you like front wheel drive? Do you really need all the accessories. Are there enough accessories? What about the body shapes? What do Alfa cars say about you today that is different to what they said about you in the past?

Basically, if you were going to try to make cars that people actually wanted and qued up at your front door instead of at the opposition's door, what would your design criteria be?

Are we buying new Alfas because of brand loyalty until a better model comes along or are we really tickled pink with what we have and it is right on the money? If you had a chance to tell Alfa what sort of Alfa to make and be assured of your custom, what would that design criteria be?

[Paul Gulliver]

If they could tool up again to make the series 2 1750 GTV and possibly a twin spark Alfetta GTV i'm pretty sure they would still sell

[k76]

For me it's important that they remain "special". By that I mean things like having an all alloy twin cam engine when everyone else is having a cast iron ingot, twin dellortos rather than a single barrel downdraught, gearbox in the back as the alfettas, the boxer in the sud, the sound of pretty much any alfa engine, beautiful curves of the Bertone or the sharp design of the Giugiaro Alfetta GTV. I could go on and on. That special is being dilluted every generation, for example the 159 in my view is nothing more than a beauti'fied version of a generic GM product. It does that well, but I wish that the "special" bit went abit deeper than just a custom plastic on the valve cover. I'm a bit harsh here, but you get my drift. As an example, ugly as they are I think BMW has done a much better job at remaining "special" with cars like the 135.

[spieret]

I think Alfa went the right way with the design of the new 8C. It had everyone drooling over the lines and the motor. My 98 GTV, I think, is beautiful and the lines just sweep along the car. The fact that it is front wheel drive makes little difference as they installed a multilink rear suspension that gives it passive rear wheel steering.

I think the most important thing in car design is individuality. It's very hard to maintain that and keep pricing down. Take headlights and brake lights for example, even ferrari uses lights that are also on other cars. To be cost effective you have to. I don't know if I agree that carbies on a modern car would make it special.

I think Alfa do give their modern cars a certain edge that makes them more attractive. I can see this thread could cause a lot of arguments, old school verse new school. I like most of the models from all era's of Alfa Romeo , some of them are like, what were you thinking making that an Alfa Romeo. And if you deride any model Alfa, someone will pipe up and get their nose out of joint.

The thing that makes a car special is how it's owner feels about it.

Cheers

Tony

[k76]

I didn't mean I wan't to go back to carbies, or de-dion etc on modern cars, i'm just saying they had things that were well advanced in their time. My guess is that the next big development in cars is going to be weight reduction, I'd like to see them lead in that for a start.

[Tim Jobson]

It seems to be a problem with many of the manufacturers and Alfa has also fallen for the me too syndrome.

I believe Alfa needs to make sports cars, not sedans that are tarted up.   They should be great if not stunning to look at and look like they have racing character.    The body shape needs to contain enought sex appeal and racing good looks so that it will always have that timeless beauty over the passing years.

It should not only sound and handle like a sports car but also have an interior that is race/sport car feel and smell, not full of plastic boring sedan like features.    It should make you want to say after seeing and driving it  -   I want one and I want one now!

I suppose thats why I tend to like 70s cars!

Tim

[MD]

Bit of steering correction (if you think it's needed)

I tried very carefully to phrase my opening remarks to invite suggestions about what you think are the desireable features for an Alfa destined for your garage. A simple enough invitation.

To save peoples feelings it's a fair enough call to say that it is not an invitaiton to bag the crap out of what we don't like in terms of specifically naming models. I think we can all see where that would lead us to- basically a big ball of negativity.(924 Porche owners are still out in the cold and mostly on Valium)

What we want is a positive and inspirational discussion of what the possibilities should be ie. looking forward just in case somebody in Alfa admin is actually paying attention and gives a sheit.

Having said that, I see no issues with what has been said so far and as the main heading to this topic set says it is for General Discussion - so let's have a discussion and in doing so the content may get a bit ragged and edgy at times but it's impossible to have a frank one without it.

I am running dangerously close to being a self appointed moderator so before I get that label I am getting on my roller blades and outta here...

[Al Campbell]

I think ALFA design to me is three things (in order of importance):

1.   Handling – going around corners is fun. I look for twisty roads, and they’re never long enough.

2.   Looks – too me a nicely done 105 is as about as good as the automotive art gets for affordable cars. But it’s deeper than that; I love the older motors, the twin cam fours and the older 2.5L. The flowing Alfa Romeo script on the cam covers. Does anyone else feel strangely excited when someone posts a photo of their almost finished motor re-build, with all that shiny alloy? They didn’t have to design those castings with those looks to function correctly, but they did.

3.   The sound. Not being loud, but just that little extra when you rev harder. If you’re not in traffic, do you have the window down in Winter?

It’s a good question about the newer cars: brand loyalty, or do they still have these things? I’m thinking of getting a third car, for when the GTV6 is having a rest. My head says get something Japanese and reliable, my heart says a 105, my wallet says a 164.

Some still don’t quite understand. I was heading off Saturday morning (to Monza in Bayswater for some parts) and she asked “Why are you taking the ALFA?” I would've commuted in the Subaru along the South Eastern freeway. I drove the GTV6 via Warrandyte and came home via Wattle Glen. That isn’t a philosophy that you put on a Mission Statement. That is a something you feel.

AL.

[NigelC]

I wish I could bottle and sell that 'something' that makes Alfas special.  They make cars for people who love cars.  I currently have a 2006 model 159 and a 1979 GTV which are mechanically worlds apart but connected by a philosophical thread that is so difficult to define - a poet may have the words for it but I don't.  My ex-wife said the 159 sounded like a Nissan Pulsar - I kept the car but I'm no longer married!  It does sound simple and refined from the inside but the head turns it generates suggest that it looks and sounds quite awesome from the outside.  The car does look fast, even when it's parked.

My GTV (slowly ... oh so slowly) being modified into a Group S, is referred to by the local kids as the James Bond car.  Driving it, with the windows down, through hills and bends puts a smile on my face that even Kevin Rudd couldn't remove (big call I know).  In essence you can't keep me out of my Alfa Romeos because they are cars made for car lovers.

[WilliamB1750]

I think ALFA design to me is three things (in order of importance):

1.   Handling – going around corners is fun. I look for twisty roads, and they're never long enough.

Yes, the "drivers car" in my opinion has never been expressed better in vehicles that ordinary people can appreciate.

2.   Looks – too me a nicely done 105 is as about as good as the automotive art gets for affordable cars. But it’s deeper than that; I love the older motors, the twin cam fours and the older 2.5L. The flowing Alfa Romeo script on the cam covers. Does anyone else feel strangely excited when someone posts a photo of their almost finished motor re-build, with all that shiny alloy? They didn’t have to design those castings with those looks to function correctly, but they did.

And again yes they did, and yes I do.

3.   The sound. Not being loud, but just that little extra when you rev harder. If you’re not in traffic, do you have the window down in Winter?

It’s a good question about the newer cars: brand loyalty, or do they still have these things? I’m thinking of getting a third car, for when the GTV6 is having a rest. My head says get something Japanese and reliable, my heart says a 105, my wallet says a 164.

Some still don’t quite understand. I was heading off Saturday morning (to Monza in Bayswater for some parts) and she asked “Why are you taking the ALFA?” I would commutted in the Subaru along the South Eastern freeway. I dove the GTV6 via Warrandyte and came home via Wattle Glen. That isn’t a philosophy that you put on a Mission Statement. That is a something you feel.

AL.

Always have the window down on my 105, I bought this model because as a 13 year old I had a 10 minute ride in the back of a GT Junior and that was all it took. I had an Altetta (which was a basket case when I bought it) and got hooked on the "drivers stuff". sadly its long gone as I was doing the young family man thing back then. And now I'm basking in the glow which comes from driving/owning an Alfa. And its really a warm fuzzy feeling when all the young  kids look and point because its not a Nissan or whatever, they have to look at the badges to figure out what it is and more than once I heard " oh it's an Alfa" and thats just fantastic

[alfagtv100 (Biggus)]

Alfa's current design criteria is to produce cars people may actually want to buy (more than once).  They design cars that feature striking exterior styling, lovely driver-focussed interiors and offer a sporting experience.
They may finally, even offer the build quality and reliability people expect of a premium product.  Take the 159 for example.  Its been criticised for being too heavy at 1700 kilos.  I read a review recently that stated the chassis was so over-engineered, it could achieve a 6 star NCAP rating (if that existed).  Its all about improving durability and refinement.  I can tell you the turn-in is still razor sharp, the handling sweet and you wont find a trace of chassis flex.
However, the trade-off is a car which is slower than it could have been, with a motor which is overly polluting and fuel inefficient.  Mind you, it sounds great from the driver's seat and even better from outside, so its not all bad.
Is the 159 as brilliant and well engineered as a BMW 3-series?  Nope.  Mind you, its also considerably cheaper.

I am hoping the MiTo represents a sound marketing strategy for Alfa in the current economic climate.  They kept development costs low by leveraging an existing FIAT platform, whilst introducing small capacity (fuel efficient) engines that deliver sporting performance.  The styling is unique and it has a nice interior.  And at $30-$40k, its within the reach of a greater base of prospective buyers.

Alfa has nearly been lost to us on numerous occasions and their recent growth (against the Global trend) is good to see.  I wonder why they don't manufacture the 8C with a steel body and V6 for around $100k (perhaps they don't have the funds to do so)?  It could be as slow as old people rooting.  They would sell a heap of them.
Cheers,
Marco.

[MD]

What is it that I want from my new Alfa? Well here's my wish list:-

Performance

Better performance than other makes of the same engine capacity and chassis dynamics to match. Race proven weight distribution.
No computer enhanced suspension do-dads. I want to challenge myself at the wheel not a computer. Plenty of steering feel seemingly lost on modern cars. Definitely no power steering.
At least match the braking efficiency of any other sports car of the same mass and similar price range. No ABS required.

Engine

A crisp engine with an identifiable Italian heritage and some Jano creativity in there. Good thermal efficiency which is at least 100hp/litre or better. Well designed lightweight internals that spin up fast and crankshafts that don't weigh a ton. Piston configurations that produce good squish. Tuned induction, exhaust systems and camshafts that produce a good and useable spread of torque that don't develop the power in the last 1500 rpm. Does it have to be fuel efficient at the expense of performance, no. Two stage supercharging 1.5litre six cylinder configurations may deliver good power-to-weight and Alfa shouldn't be afraid of looking back to go forward.

Gearing

Well defined ratios to match engine revolutions and power band. Synchros that last longer than the first 20,ooo service and work equally well on all gears.

Weight

The key to performance is power to weight. Pay attention to everything that contributes to weight gain in the car. Forget all the baloney trinkets that belong in the limousine class of vehicle. Exercise a ruthless strip down of what a true sports car needs to perform its job and do it well reliably. It doesn't need the majority of dribble that's crept into cars today. Alternatively, give the buyer the choice of a fully optioned vehicle for the lard arse sector who just cannot live without and a bare bones car for real enthusiasts.

Quality

There is no excuse in todays technology for oil leaks. If the Japs can do it, anybody can do it. The notion of Italian means an oil slick has got to end. Likewise the issue of corrosion has got to cease and for purposes of resale, the idea that Alfas are rust buckets has to be left for the history books.

Distinction

If an Alfa doesn't have a distinctive personality it's not really an Alfa end of story. If manufacturers all followed the ideal wind tunnel form to maximize fuel efficiency, we would all be driving the same shape car with different badges on it. Compromises need to be made here in the interest of form and shape.

Where from here?

Well pretty much a clean sheet start for Alfa. They are never going to be able to mass produce a world car that Fiat dreams of because the Chinese and Indians will do that soon enough. Lets concentrate on serving enthusiasts who expect so much more from their Alfa than transport from A>B. Stop charging BMW prices and then failing to deliver BMW performance and style.

[Neil Choi]

No Cup Holders!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[MD]

No Cup Holders!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Not necessary. They come standard with every passenger..

[lombardi]

The Biggest defining factor in ALFA ROMEO was when FIAT took over the marque,in partcular from the 164 onwards- ie, FRONT WHEEL DRIVE,TIMING BELTS for example.
It is questionable,but ALFA was going broke and the consensus is that FIAT saved the marque.
I was living in italia during the years of the naples ALFA factory,unfortunately the reputation of the mezzogiorno was very detrimental to ALFA,it was perceived that the quality was not up to standard of milano,this snowballed to their demise in some way, but thanks to FIAT ALFA WAS KEPT UNDER ITALIAN OWNERSHIP, the AGNELLI family did help.CIAO