Show of Interest.

[Duk]

1st of all, greetings to those who I haven't had the pleasure of 'forum-ing' with  .

A quick run down:
I have Alfa Romeo 75 Potenziata with it's Bosch Motronic system and it's undersized air flow meter.
I've searched high and low, but tuning the Motronic system seams to be a very dark art. I've found precious little information on the internal workings of the system or any interface software that can be used to interperate the chip coding. No such thing as any real time tuning interface's either (well, none that I could find).

Now then, I do have some experiance with Nissan computers, not much, but enough to get me into trouble  .
There is plenty of information on the 'net about how they work and how to tune them. There is even some excellent real time tuning interface equipment made here in little old Oz http://www.nistune.com/ at very reasonable cost.

So what I am in the throws of doing, is to get the complete engine management system from a nice common (as mud) car and intergrate it into my Alfa. A system out of say....... a VL Commodore. Yes I know, finally a potential use for them other than land fill .

So what I want to know is, would people interested in reading about the process of adapting a Nissan/VL Dunnydore engine management system into an Alfa, with the intentions of being a sort of manual/guide for anyone else who would want to do the same?
The real winners would be the earlier L Jetronic systems that could be replaced for bugger all $'s and have the advantage of a much more modern digital system that is tunable, has a bigger free'er flowing airflow meter, has an effective diagnostic system and would be based around common as sh!t Nissan/Holden and some Bosch parts.

From initial lookings, the hardest part will be extending the wiring for the airflow meter (no big deal), adapting the Nissan distributor with it's inbuilt crank angle sensor (a machined up duver-hicky and adapting the Alfa distributor drive looks doable). Hooking up to the fuel pump(s), the vehicle speed sensor and a few other things (where the fun starts).
Ultimately it would be great to have some nice base maps (ie: program a chip, set base ignition timing and drive off into the sun set) for a standard 2.5ltr, 3ltr and the 9.5:1CR 3ltr engines.

Obviously it takes time and effort to put something like this together (photo's, diagrams and written information), but if a few of you guys out there would be inclined to do the same, I'm happy to do a 'how to' write up.

[Jekyll and Hyde]

Wouldn't it be much easier and probably cheaper to throw a Megasquirt or similar on it and turf the air flow meter completely?

[Sheldon McIntosh]

If you go ahead with it, I'll definitely be reading.

[Duk]

Wouldn't it be much easier and probably cheaper to throw a Megasquirt or similar on it and turf the air flow meter completely?

Haha! I knew this question would pop up. The short answer is "Maybe."
If you absolutely must have a programable system, the Megasquirt might(!!!) cost less.
If you want a decent, manufacturer quallity engine management system that would/should (better flowing airflow meter  ) provide a reasonable improvement in HP, I'd go the Nissan system. Actually, I'd go the Nissan based system even if I do (actually will) want a programable engine management system.
I was able to buy a wiring loom, computer, airflow meter and distributor for a bit over $160 including freight, off Epay. The Alfa throttle position switch, auxillary air valve, idle speed contol solenoid (small wiring change) and, hopefully, (no big deal if it doesn't) coolant temperature sensor are a match. Buying a wreck, taking what you want and selling the rest to a wrecker could cost even less.

The whole idea is for those who are inclined, to be able to get their Alfa V6's running on a newer, manufacturer quallity engine management, system for bugger all coin.

[OzMidnight]

Have you thought about using a Camira setup...it is same as the later VN/VP systems, can be adapted to run any engine and is completely mappable/tuneable by any of the Delco tuners. 

Weirdly, the Camira fuel pump on the 2.0's is even the same part number as the VL Turbo pump - enough for 390hp......

[Duk]

Have you thought about using a Camira setup...it is same as the later VN/VP systems, can be adapted to run any engine and is completely mappable/tuneable by any of the Delco tuners. 

Weirdly, the Camira fuel pump on the 2.0's is even the same part number as the VL Turbo pump - enough for 390hp......

I did, but the reason I wanted to use the Nissan system is because of the closeness of the 2 engines (capacity and combustion chamber design), so that should mean similar tuning with just (hopefully  ) some fine tuning.
That, and the only real way to do a Delco set up (that I could find) is either using the Kalmaker software ($$$) or trying to get your hands on the old P4 (DOS based offline tuning) software. I nearly got my hands on P4 years ago, but missed out.
I did find some other software from the states, I just found it a bit difficult to use (30 day trial). Again it was offline tuning.
The Kalmaker tuning interface is about twice the price of the Nistune interface 

[Fylnn]

Hell yeah, I would read it through.  Just in process getting my GTV6 running again and the old resistance based L-jetronic is sure to be not quite what it left the factory at.  Would love to update cheaply but in some ways more importantly with an OEM quality system that I don't have to spend forever dynoing.  Not after absolute horsepower, just good reliable horsepower that I can take out for a blast at the weekend and park in the shed without having to detune the whole thing before next time.

Of course if I wanted that I should have brought a Toyota, but figure I will have plenty other things to do without worrying about the fuel injection.

Cheers

[Fylnn]

Did this chageover ever progress?

[Duk]

It is on the list of things to do.
Some progress has been made, but that is more a case of figuring out what wire does what and how it will intergrate into the Alfa.

[AR116]

Why not install a complete new aftermarket computer like EMS, Microtech, Motec etc. I know a few people who have done this and it has worked good. You get the latest engine management technology and the advantages of reprogramming if you want to change things in the future ie if you go for more power.

I once spoke to a guy from maztech of melbourne and he said they had just finished a gtv6 off with a microtech unit whilst some one i know got his twinspark installed with autronic by beninca about 3 years ago and he has been as happy as harry. To quote his words "I probably paid a bit more by going to beninca and using autronic but at the end of the day its been awesome. No dramas since". He even made more power with this setup on benincas dyno than a standard 156 twinspark at last years dyno day.

[Fylnn]

So how much did these guys pay for the conversions?

[Duk]

Why not install a complete new aftermarket computer like EMS, Microtech, Motec etc. I know a few people who have done this and it has worked good. You get the latest engine management technology and the advantages of reprogramming if you want to change things in the future ie if you go for more power.

I once spoke to a guy from maztech of melbourne and he said they had just finished a gtv6 off with a microtech unit whilst some one i know got his twinspark installed with autronic by beninca about 3 years ago and he has been as happy as harry. To quote his words "I probably paid a bit more by going to beninca and using autronic but at the end of the day its been awesome. No dramas since". He even made more power with this setup on benincas dyno than a standard 156 twinspark at last years dyno day.

1st: I'll suggest that you read the whole thread for my reasons 'why'.

2nd: I very rarely pay others to work on my cars. I will certainly not pay someone to do installation of aftermarket electronics (or factory stuff for that matter). I have had, seen and heard/read of to many horror stories of half arsed installation. I'm not saying that everybody in the aftermarket is dodgy, but there are plenty out there. Besides, there is no sence of personal achievement when you pay others  

3rd: In the real world, the aftermarket computers that we mere mortals can buy aint "the latest engine management technology". The aftermarket have NOTHING on the likes of Ford, General Motors and, dare I say it, Bosch!
I seriously doubt anybody who claims to have 'magically' come up with a better knock sensor system for an 'old' engine and 1 of the few aftermarket systems that actually have some usefull form of knock sensor feadback, than a factory system
Note that I'm not talking about data logging and programable inputs and outputs, but the real world, hot and cold starts. Idle speed control with the aircon running and the alternator loading up the engine. Altitude and weather condition compensation. And there are plenty more things I could rant on about.

As for aftermarket computers making more power. It's not the computer, regardless of brand that made the power, it's the engine!
The factory computer is tuned to meet the emissions requirements of that year of production, safely cover the slight production variations that occur and allow for dodgy batches of fuel and help compensate for half whit drivers that don't know that they should be 2 gears lower than they currently are.
An after market system can be tuned to make the best possible power the engine can achieve. The factory system could be tuned to make the best possible power that that particular engine could achieve aswel, so long as the factory system IS reprogramable, there is an actual and practicle meens to tune the engine management system and there aren't any external limiting factors like an overly small airflow meter.

Note: 'Airflow meter' doesn't instantly equal flow restriction.

Tuning for maximum power is actually the easy part. Getting all the bits from idle to max power right is the tricky stuff.

Factory systems are MUCH more complicated than what most people realise.

And please refrain from mentioning Microtech on my thread  

[OzMidnight]

Micr....anyway.  Don't the VN systems do away with airflow meters and use a MAP sensor instead?

[Fylnn]

Duk,

For what it is worth I just got quoted about $4,500 to install a basic Motec unit on a GTV6.  That does the ignition and the fuel, replaces the Bosch L-jetronic and the Bosch ignition system.  I really hope your system works because that is seriously outside my budget.  At present mine won't even start after a long down period, so something has gone screwy in the thing, but think I will look a bit harder before dropping 4 big ones on updating it to Motec.

So I am cheering for you.

[Duk]

Micr....anyway.  Don't the VN systems do away with airflow meters and use a MAP sensor instead?

That they do. Once uppon a time, so the story goes, Kalmaker was, apparently, available free or at a very low cost. If it was still the case, I would use it.

Fylnn, $4500 is some serious coin! Not far off  what I paid for my Potenziata.............  .

BTW, Microtech do make some good, well priced ignition modules (the X4($150 + freight, for another project  ) and X6). But they don't supply an input trigger plugs. They are on the ECU wiring loom. Fortunately the X4 4 pin input trigger plug is the same as 1 of the mother board power supply plugs in newish computers.
But they won't tell you that or even sell you a sepperate plug.