How much to fully restore a GTV6 ??

[MD]

Davidm1750

I believe your views typify the majority of thinking out there very well which is precisely the point I am putting the magnifier on. Here's the condensed version of what I am saying.

1 A $20,000 GTV6 in beautiful original condition is realistically a car that is several decades old.
2 A $50,000 GTV6 is a new car that WAS several decades old but has undergone a metamorphosis.

It's value needs to compete with a new Alfa coupe value if there is such a comparable in the first place.

As for cutting corners and sticking a good used motor in from ebay, well if that's what the Alfa factory did for a new production car I guess that would be acceptable. Of course that is a dumb proposition on my part and neither would it be appropriate for a proper restoration project that is honest to bone .

Just so I don't get misunderstood here. I am in awe at the ability of owners who manage to keep their cars in immaculate condition for as long as they do so please don't take any of my comments as somehow denegrating your car or talents. It's about respect for the original and respect for guys who replicate the original on equal terms.

[L4OMEO]

Hi MD

Interesting thread.

Working in manufacturing I'd take issue with calling a 50k GTV6 a new car though. It might well have undergone a major metamorphosis but to me a more accurate description would be to call it re-manufactured or refurbished. Ultimately it is still a restored example of a car originally designed and manufactured several decades ago. Even Nissan, when it started a programme of buying and restoring old Datsun 240Zs back in about 2006, sold them as remanufactured rather than new products.

I'm guessing we could probably debate the subtleties of this for a while (wouldn't be the first time   )

Cheers mate
Rory

[Davidm1600]

Hi MD, I don't mind reading your views on the issue and no worries take absolutely no offense, since I know none was intended, as neither I did.  What I was trying to convey is that there is a market for all possibilities, the issue though is of pragmatism and practicality versus the ideal. Sure in an ideal world someone might wish to spend upto say $50K restoring a GTV6 but in terms of practicality it makes little economic sense in todays market, and secondly in truth I doubt there would be relatively few customers contemplating say a new GTV who would contempate the fully restored/re-manufactured GTV6.  The cars in the end would appeal to different markets, that is unless in the  GTV6 one could include front and side airbags, stability control, traction control, ABS, aircon, satnav, power steering, zenon lighting, etc etc and fundamentally a decent gearbox.  But then you wouldn't have that 80s GTV6.

Perhaps in 10 or 20 years time spending upto $50K might be acceptable, who knows   As to the equation of comparing that against say a 'hyper inflated' Aussie muscle car this makes little sense to me.  I can't even begin to imagine the logic in paying so much $$$ for a GT Chook or Monaro etc.  The problem there is if I were to begin to pay so much $$ for a GTV6 or far worse still one of those Aussie cars, I would seriously be looking at instead Italian exotica, Porsches and Astons etc.  The market for the Aussie muscle car is a completely different issue.

So and in respect of that, the most logical alternative to an owner wishing to bring their GTV6 up to sound specification but  at the same time trying to stay reasonably within a budget is to look for alternatives, such as I alluded to.  I am not saying it is the necessarily the best option if you are trying to keep your car original but in the end it still has to be a practical option to consider. 

Let me give an example.  I have been restoring my Giulia Super for the past 7 years and who knows when it will be finished.  And yes it will have cost me more than I could sell it for, ie. best guess say $25-30K.  However, in my case, I needed new doors as the old one were rusted out, it needed new cills, and literally so many other parts. But given I have to work within some sort of budget this includes both new and second hand parts.  For instance ebay for the script work which will be re-chromed, but new lights, lens, rubbers, but I can live with its original glass (including windscreen).  The gearbox was totally overhauled by a mate for a bottle of decent red ( I paid only for the parts), but I need a replacement engine since the original one was destroyed by a mate I previously leant it to.  The interior, given I like the look of the '67 over the '69 is a total replacement but is a mix of 2nd hand and new.  ie. 2nd hand instruments, new headlining, door cards, carpets, dash cap and timber veneers, and of course the 2nd hand seats have been re-bolstered and covered in leather.   

When I can afford it the suspension and brakes will be totally overhauled, with both a mix of new and the original parts.   So in effect what I will end up with is an example of "grandad's axe". However, in a way it is not really unlike what was suggested re the GTV6 project since all the 2nd hand parts are to be subject to re-furbishment.

Rory in my mind is definitely on the money here since I too recall Nissan's program to re-manufacture the 240z. Similarly today, you can order a new body shell for your (105 GTV), and all the parts to totally rebuild your car from Classic Alfa, Alfaholics etc.  My only question here is though, would what you end up with being a re-manufactured GTV or a possibly a replica ?   

[MD]

Lest we get into a discussion that is bigger than the Sydney Morning Herald double spread, I have no intention of having the last word here as I think my views should now be clear. It's what makes being in the Alfa fraternity so great as we have a bunch of alternate thinkers that give stuff the real shake down. Appreciate your contribution David and likewise everybody else who has chimmed in. I'll end by saying that the last fully restored 2 litre 105 coupe I saw about 6 years ago in concourse condition had a price tag of $40,000 on it. Frankly it was worth every cent. Make of that what you will.

As for you John, I am getting worried about you for sure. I think you are due for the Alfa antidote. You are one sick puppy. I prescribe a three weeks motoring holiday in a Corolla. Remember you should listen to your MD if you want to get well.

[GoldCLoverLeaf]

I thought this would be a fun thread to dig up, posted almost 10 years ago. It seems GTV6 prices have been on the move over the last year or two. I suppose having Clarksons example on the Grand Tour recently would only help values along further.

I think the main problem with restoring a GTV6 is the lack of cosmetic parts available, there is a very limited supply of plastic parts available, although this might be slowly improving as i see you can now get the sunroof handle surrounds and a couple other small interior bits. This is a stark contrast to 105's, which appear to have almost everything available.

There doesn't appear to be any headlining kits, velour pinstripe fabric available, plastic bumpers (although it appears you can get the small corner infills and side skirts now). New rear lights seem to be all NOS and command big $$$.

I have a late '85 GTV6 that i will be restoring, the car is very original, right down to the original windscreen and Alfa Romeo tape deck, but it's a bit scruffy, bumpers warped, interior getting tired etc. I'd love to keep it as original as possible, but it's hard to do when so little is available.

What are your thoughts, will the aftermarket warm up to the GTV6 now that prices are on the rise?

[GTV-074]

I think the Alfetta's will increase in value, no doubt about it.

As the 105 series edges away people will go the next 'affordable' model and the Alfetta is it.

I reckon a late model Alfetta GTV 4 cyl. perhaps with a sunroof, AC (if thats what you want) is a bargain at 10-15K. V6's are more of course.

The prices will go up as they get drawn/sucked into the vacuum of the 105's. For example witness the muscle car scene here in Oz.

As say, the genuine Falcon GT prices went stratospheric, replica's, Fairmont V8's, GS's etc. got sucked into the vortex.

The whole Alfetta range is heading the same way. Other contributing factors have a say too, condition, rarity, race history etc.

Cheers,

Paul.

[GG105]

I'm not so sure, agreed a rising tide floats all boats, however I have my doubts about Alfettas.

I have now "restored" two GTV6s, a split dash and my current SA 3 litre. Neither has been restored to a standard I would have liked because all of the important cosmetic parts, bumpers, skirts, lights, interior trim aren't available.

To be brutally frank, the build quality is crap, gaps are all over the place and the quality of the plastics is laughable. The early cars are prettier and have fewer issues in this area, but they rust like there's no tomorrow. I know because I also restored a square headlight Sud.

The only plastic bumper cars I can see having any real value are GTV6s. Trouble is, compare the interior of a 105, any 105, with a GTV6. 105 interiors are classy. Alfetta interiors are not, they feel old, narrow and cheap. The coupe driving position is rubbish too. Mechanically, they are not as robust as 105s either. Lets not discuss the gear change, the heavy steering or the understeer, yes the last two can be dealt with, but 105s don't have these issues as standard.

The Alfetta coupe body was 7 years old when the plastic update was introduced, whilst successful, it did little to enhance the original Giugiaro design and then staggered on for a further 6 years or so, by which time the world had passed it by.

The major attraction of the GTV6 is the engine, which is a gem, once you've dealt with the head gaskets, timing belt tensioner, and exhaust cam lobe wear. The electrics are a joke and the design of the A/C system is beyond belief.

Despite all of this I love them, now being on my fifth. As most do, I bought the first for the glorious wailing little V6 and put up with rest.

Nevertheless, I don't think they will ever match or surpass the best 105s in value or regard. I believe the 105 series Alfas are best driving cars of the 60s and still fun today. The 70s Alfetta sedans were very good, as with most Alfas, better than the coupes, but by the 80s it was all over.

Forget values, you should only own these because you love them.

[GTV-074]

GG,

Agree with all points you have made (still miss my Alfetta sedan).

I guess I was saying they will go up somewhat but yeah I doubt they will
Hit the heights of 105's.

Cheers,

Paul.

[MD]

Wow GG105 what a can of worms !
Love 'em. hate 'em, frustrated by them, can't live without 'em.
Mate you need to open the cheque book at Alfaholics to get a proper 105 and it's only cost over $200K to fix the problems... (  keeping it light here)
I have owned a Giulia Sprint GT, a 2L Berlina and Giulia Super. I know a couple of things about them. However I have no intention of making a quid pro quo list of 105 demerits as that would not be constructive to the many devotees of them (me included). The subject heading was never envisioned to make comparisons between series as such thing is a whole other topic remembering that a faultless Alfa has yet to be created-just ask Top Gear 
With the 105 series becoming more and more scarce, Alfa enthusiast naturally gravitate to what is affordable and logic would have it to experiment with the 116 series as they are /were comparatively cheap. Like all used cars, they come with pitfalls and I was hoping that this little subject would provide some insights into these cars for future buyers to consider and weigh up the pros and cons. To that end, I thank you for your contribution.
My take has always been with any Alfa I have ever owned and that is, appreciate the great aspects of it and set about fixing the parts the bean counters went too tight on the purse strings with. If you do that with a GTV6, it will reward you without reservation.

[GG105]

MD, my point is that when new both 105s and Alfettas occupied the same price sector. I know about modding 105s, I have one in my 1300TI, and you don't need to spend $200k at Alfaholics or with anyone else. Plus, since you raised it, a lot of these mods lose the delicacy that makes a 105 so special. I own a mint, stock, 1300 Junior and have owned a low mile stock Giulia Super. My point was is that a stock 105, any 105, in good condition is a joy.

In my view Alfettas, are not as nice. In my post I was responding to views about prospective values in earlier posts, and why  I think non V6 Alfetta values will remain subdued

[GoldCLoverLeaf]

I just hope whatever happens, more restoration parts will become available, i agree, the interiors are awful in comparison to the 105's. My '67 Super is miles ahead in fit and finish, not just the interior, but the bodywork as well. The late 70's and early 80's were just not a great era for any car manufacturer it seems, but Alfa was particularly loose in quality control! I found the 75 interiors to hold up a bit better, the dashes in those never seem to crack either.

It reminds me of a quote an auto journalist wrote, they were well aware of all the cars foibles, but it just got under their skin, the quote was something like 'with so many faults in its design, you couldn't recommend a GTV6 to anybody but yourself'.

[bonno]

Hi GoldCLoverLeaf
In response to your initial query of how much to restore a GTV6, I can only offer my recent experience involving a cosmetic refresh carried out on my 1983 Alfetta GTV4. This is dependent on how much you can do yourself and source out, but a repaint, new interior (seats and dash), exterior trims and plastics (rear louvres, front vents, wiper covers, front grille and front outer headlights) cost me around $10K. I have included before and after shots below as a picture says a thousand words.

[bonno]

One last photo

[poohbah]

I never tire of seeing pics of Bonno's beast - but I can only assume that to have done all that for just $10k (including that fabulous leather interior) very little metal work/welding was required? (How I wish!)

Anyway, as far as values go, there is no doubt they have risen sharply since I bought my reasonably straight but scruffy GTV for $4k in 2015.

From what I've seen, it seems pretty hard to find a road-registered and driveable GTV for under $10k now, while anything in good condition is more like $15k, to which you can add at least another $5k to each category if its a V6 (showroom GTV6s all seem to be in plus $30k bracket now)

Whether they can double again is hard to guess, but I sure hope so - 'cos mine owes me over $10k already...

[GoldCLoverLeaf]

I sold this red '77 10 years ago for for something like $4500. I've always had a soft spot for a 4 banger 'fetta. My first car when i was a teenager in Vancouver was a Californian import Alfetta GTV 'Sprint Veloce' with the dreaded Spica mechanical injection. It was a factory black car with tan vinyl interior and black/polished Momo Vegas. I really wanted a GTV6, but a nice one was like... $6000 at the time! Had to settle for the $3000 option. How times change!

Hopefully the red one i restored is still getting around Byron Bay, i did a NSW online rego check, it's still registered with the same plates.