ALFA DEFUNCT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[jg1053]

I've heard rumors that Alfa may not exist in any form in the near future or maybe on a Chrysler US platform at the very least. It's time to stat writing to Fiat, Italy and let them know that Alfisti will not stand by and let it happen without some sort of a fight. Common you guys, get motivated and write to voice your opinion-at least. There's too much at stake. I can't imagine life without an Alfa to lust after. I have started this thread to solicit your opinions.
Jim

[Duk]

I hate to sound so negative, but in reality, it happened years ago.

Alfa hasn't had it's own chassis for how long?

They dropped their own V6 in ecconomicle favour of the Australian built engine.

I know SFA about the 4 cylinder engines after the 75TS, but isn't it really just a cheap FIAT engine (from what I have read about thrashed out bearings)?

When was he last real 'Alfa Romeo' Alfa Romeo? I think it was the 75/SZ/RZ's myself. After that, in my mind,  it was pretty much just badge engineering with a different body on a common chassis, there after  .

[Davidm1600]

Duk I have heard that opinion expressed before and have given it much thought in the past. People querying whether cars such as the 156, 166, 147, GTV/GVT6, MiTo, 8C Competizione are Alfas, or just badge engineered Fiats/Maserati's and so on.  Ditto the question of RWD vrs FWD and that unless it was RWD it wasn't a 'real' Alfa. 

I just am not convinced that this is the case.  I enjoy my 156, and it looks like and feels like an Alfa, so to me I think it is probably an Alfa. Ditto having driven the 'new' GTV/GTV6' these too also felt like Alfas and actually reminded me of my 1750 GTV rather than the Alfettas I also have had.  So, where do we go from here.  In this world of ever shrinking manufacturers I suspect what has occurred or may occur is not surprising.  The opposite in fact would be, and at least our modern Alfa's are at least still largely designed and made in Italy, even if it were to have a Chrysler platform and someone else's engine.

So and perhaps in response to Jim's stated concerns, I think the real issue is whether or not Alfa as a brand continues to live is the real question, and that at least so long as they continue to design and build Alfas as a brand in Italy is ok by me. To an extent I couldnt care less who owns the brand name.  Alfa afterall has throughout its life gone through a huge range of owner changes, financial crisis etc and still is here with us.  To me it would be illogical for Fiat to kill off the brand, as the name is too well recognised in the market and that is a powerful factor for any business. 

[JOHN G]

I hate to sound so negative, but in reality, it happened years ago.

Alfa hasn't had it's own chassis for how long?

They dropped their own V6 in ecconomicle favour of the Australian built engine.

I know SFA about the 4 cylinder engines after the 75TS, but isn't it really just a cheap FIAT engine (from what I have read about thrashed out bearings)?

When was he last real 'Alfa Romeo' Alfa Romeo? I think it was the 75/SZ/RZ's myself. After that, in my mind,  it was pretty much just badge engineering with a different body on a common chassis, there after  .

Duk

Spot on I agree with your post mate.

I would rather see the Brand die out then been turned into a joke.

Hopefully Fiat will let Alfa Romeo die with dignity.

John

[lombardi]

E' un disastro, is nothing sacred anymore (hold on to our alfa's boys and girls) Nippon is not gonna get me.CIAO

[MD]

Hahaa. Hey John. Don't stuff around mate. Say what you really mean. Hahaa. Just kidding.

I beleive that Fiat as  group have all the capabilities in the world to make great cars if only they understood the market as well their engineering. It seems this is their achillies heel and has been for a long time.

I just wish that Alfa could find a way to make cars for a niche market of dedicated followers who don't really give a stuff what the mass market wants. It's what we want that matters which is individuality,charisma, no pretences performance, a price tag that is affordable in banana republic dollars.

For goodness sakes, cut the leg off but give us our real Alfas !!!! No badge engineered sheit for me. It is simply commercial deceit.

[L4OMEO]

Very good 

But, we are confusing a couple of distinctly different concepts here - badge engineering (where two essentially identical vehicles are given aesthetic differentiation and marketed under different branding) and platform or component sharing (where ... well that should be self-explanatory). Alfa essentially does the latter, not the former - there is plenty of Alfa influence and development in every one of their products. In some cases the extent of changes made to the donor part can be so extensive that its origins are really not that relevant. This is the case with the GM V6 currently used by Alfa which has been so thoroughly re-engineered it bears little resemblance to that used in the Holden Commonwhore. Whether it's better than the Arese V6 is a whole other debate 

Frankly, I would love it if Alfa could afford to develop its own platforms and engines, but this is not economically viable. The automotive world is a different playing field now compared with Alfa's heyday and some level of the component-sharing principle is a fact of life for most main-stream manufacturers. To me the real question is: can Alfa design and engineer a range of vehicles from the resources at its disposal which deliver the core values inherent in the Alfa Romeo brand? When you consider the range of these resources (including Fiat, Lancia, Ferrari, Maserati) I don't see why not (err, MD .... does this mean we agree on something??  ), but based on recent history they don't seem to be making the best use of these.

To be commercially viable they need a competitive range of vehicles across a range of market segments. A mass-market manufacturer - even a niche-player with Alfa's heritage - can't hang its hat on a RWD coupe alone, it needs relevant products in other sectors (and yes, this does mean FWD/4WD/AWD where appropriate - BUT, at the same time, NOT offering a RWD coupe for a manufacturer with Alfa's history is equally illogical).

As for the Chrysler link - that's been mooted for some time now and it sits none too comfortably with me. I don't want Alfa to die (with or without dignity), but I think its future comes down to better vision and direction from where it currently sits than following this path.

Cheers fullas!
Rory

[MD]

Rory

I see you have thought through very well your point of view but as you and I know, whatever your point of view is, there is always someone who has an opposite or tangential one to it.

I am sorry but I don't buy the mass market argument. I only have to look to Lotus to see that a niche market is achievable if the will is there.

MD

[L4OMEO]

Hi MD

I see you have thought through very well your point of view but as you and I know, whatever your point of view is, there is always someone who has an opposite or tangential one to it

No argument from me there! 

I am sorry but I don't buy the mass market argument. I only have to look to Lotus to see that a niche market is achievable if the will is there.

But Alfa has always been a mass-market player, albeit on the lower-volume end of the scale. If they want to operate like Lotus then that would be a huge shift from where they currently sit. Could they do it? Maybe, maybe not. As long as they don't have to rely on engines from Corollas and Aurions like Lotus does 

Actually MD I do agree that Alfa should be positioned as a niche-market brand, but I think for it to be viable it needs to find the niches within the mass market. I also think they have a better chance now than ever before, thanks to the diversification strategies employed by BMW, Audi and Mercedes, who have broken down the traditional market segments and shown how to find niches where previously there were none. I really don't see why Alfa can't be successful if they have clarity on the brand values and position themselves accordingly.

Cheers mate!
Rory

[Duk]

As long as they don't have to rely on engines from Corollas and Aurions like Lotus does 

The fact that Lotus uses Toyota engines speeks volumes for them. Both companies that is.

The Holden engine Alfa Romeo have started to use is a technically excellent engine that utilises all of the current day tricks to help it produce a decent spread of torque (that's just a guess, I've not driven 1) while meeting current day emisions and noise requirements. They still sound like like absolute arse in a Commondore, tho.
But no matter what Alfa supposedly do to those engines, they are still a GM engine. And my guess is that what they do do to them, is very little.

[alfagtv100 (Biggus)]

FIAT exists to sell cars and generate profits and shareholder returns.  There is not much point in running a brand that does not support this.
Alfa needs to produce cars people want to buy.  They need a Global dealer network providing a level of service which encourages punters to repeatedly return to the brand.
Sergio Marchionne summed things up appropriately when he discussed the importance of Alfa adopting and sticking to  a long-term profitable strategy.   "You cannot be a newborn Christian every four years. It's the same religion, eventually you need to own a religion and carry it to conclusion".
BMW developed and executed an effective marketing and customer experience strategy over a number of years.  Even though they are a premium brand selling expensive cars, the large number of Bimmers on the road, speaks loudly of the success of their long-term approach.
For decades, Alfa has produced flawed cars but not necessarily bad cars.  I believe they mostly sell, based on their stunning looks and being a little different.  However, the majority of people don't want to date a gorgeous girl who can be a bitch and has a nasty family.
Alfa needs to keep producing lookers but improve on the value for money and customer experience they provide.  We need to buy their cars.

[L4OMEO]

And my guess is that what they do do to them, is very little

The only part common with any GM product is the block. The heads, for example, are pure Alfa. Doesn't make it a pure Alfa engine, but I wouldn't call it a GM engine either. A bast*rd engine perhaps? 

When Alfa first got their hands on the donor GM engine they described it as "an inanimate lump of metal" and comprehensively re-engineered it. After all, for Alfa this was replacing the Arese V6 - for Holden, it was replacing an old Buick motor. No question who had the higher standard to meet. I've tried the Commonwhore version and it's a breathless, wheezy engine that does not feel like the sum of its high-tech spec. Alfa's version by all accounts is vastly better, haven't driven one myself - any comments from owners?

Nice summary Biggus, I agree with your comments on Alfa's product and service.

[MD]

Thanks for the opportunity to say my piece Jim but I need to buy a bigger piece of real estate. The reason is that I am always painting myself into a corner which is ok in a way but it really needs to be much bigger for ultimate comfort 'cause there is only one corner to piss in..

[alfagtv100 (Biggus)]

I've tried the Commonwhore version and it's a breathless, wheezy engine that does not feel like the sum of its high-tech spec. Alfa's version by all accounts is vastly better, haven't driven one myself - any comments from owners?

My 159 Ti has the 3.2l V6 and its pretty good.  Plenty of torque and a nice sound.  However, it's also thirsty as hell (average high 16's to 18 litres/100km.
I must admit Alfa could have done much better as far as under bonnet cosmetics are concerned (compared to the old motor).  They engine cover is a boring piece of plastic, lacking any sort of character or style.  It's completely at odds with the rest of the car's exquisite styling.
Cheers,
Marco.

[ProvaRacing]

...And my guess is that what they do do to them, is very little.

Just having returned to read this topic, I concur with L4OMEO and alfagtv100 (Biggus)...I'll just call you Marco in future

Apart from the obvious difference in cams, piston compression, mapping for different fuel etc...thank goodness the 159 engine, which I can only assume out of sheer respect for the Alfa Romeo heritage works its little 3.2LT ass to produce 191kw compared to Holdens 3.6LT 180kw (and even in SV6 form 195kw) It's a good thing that Holden engine can read which badge it's wearing (very tongue in cheek)

E' un disastro, is nothing sacred anymore (hold on to our alfa's boys and girls) Nippon is not gonna get me.CIAO

It's not them to worry about it's the Chinese...in their aim to rape and pillage the world they have just grabbed SAAB.