ALFA DEFUNCT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Duk]

I do stand humbly corrected about Alfa's input into the Holden engine, but simply quting the power output doesn't tell much of the story.
In Holden's deffence (and this won't happen to very often), their version of that engine is used in a significantly heavier car with a market that apparently wants as much low RPM torque as they can get. Hence the bigger capacity engine. Probably at the expence of higher RPM power but with a broader spread of torque.

[MD]

If Alfa is headed towards true mass marketing, let's have a look at player that has been there in Australia for a long time.The mighty Holden Commodore.

What is this car?
A Sedan
A Station Wagon
A Ute
A Long Wheel Base Ute
A Stretched Limo

What's it used for?
It's a mum & dad transporter
A taxi
A courier vehicle
A police car
An emergency services vehicle
A race car
A herst
A military staff car etc, etc

Now swap your Alfa for this much loved product (apparently).
Would you still see it in the same light and buy it?

Addendum for Rory

Would you feel the same about your new wheels when you were at the lights and the plumber pulls up in his Alfa ute followed by a Black & White Alfa cab and just infront of you is the Alfa Military staff car. Would you feel your brand has lost some of its unique personality that made you look at the brand in the first place? I hope that's a little clearer.

[L4OMEO]

Hi Duk

I agree, output in isolation only tells one part of the story. And yes, the GM engine is tuned for torque, but I think that's more because that's what people shopping in the Falcadore market expect rather than the necessity by weight - from memory the Commodore isn't actually that much heavier than a 3.2 V6 159 AWD. Also in Holden's defence (see what you've started???) the latest direct injection versions are much improved in terms of both output and character.

MD - sorry mate, not sure I understand your argument.

[ProvaRacing]

hi Duk the figures don't support that, it's 40-50kg difference, and the Holden has a 300rpm higher max power point. Also what you and others missed is the torque advantage of Holdens 18nm from 400cc extra size is hardly displaying the Alfa as a peaky horsepower setup car. In fact the 4500rpm max torque on the Alfa vs 2600rpm in the Holden is more in line with being 4WD and thus better able to rev at higher rpm without breaking traction (TC intervention).

PS I am quoting the higher spec Holden SV6 not the lower performing equilvalent release date to the Alfa, Holden 6cyl.

[L4OMEO]

Thanks for that Mike,

Actually I fully agree with your comments. However, in my earlier posts I never suggested Alfa competing with the likes of Holden or other high-volume/main-stream brands - no question, that would certainly devalue the Alfa Romeo brand in my eyes (although, the scenario you described probably exists in Italy  ).

My opinion is that Alfa could be successful if they identified niches within the mass-market and developed a range of vehicles true to the brand's values that would be competitive in these segments. Agreed, one of the brand values is comparative rarity. I like the fact that Alfas are not common - it's a buying factor for me. Countering this, Alfa still needs to sustain certain sales volumes to be profitable and viable. If volumes are low, economies of scale are affected, prices go up. If Alfa sold in the sort of numbers that, say, Lotus did, then unquestionably they would be more expensive and the brand as a whole would shift into another market. Could they do this? As I said before - maybe, maybe not. But they would probably lose their existing customer base in the process and need to establish a new one. Personally, I feel that my suggestion above represents less risk, and is a more consistent evolution of Alfa Romeo's history of providing original, stylish, technically advanced vehicles at a relatively affordable price, than diverging down the low-volume/high price manufacturer route.

Obviously I'm just expounding an opinion here and I won't suggest that anything I've said is fact - just making observations on the situation.

Cheers Mike
Rory

[f1worldchamp]

Guys
I don't know if Alfa is defunct, I mean does anyone complain that Audi's are mostly Volkswagen's underneath? Does the Toyota origins of Lexus stop people paying 100k for them?
For me, Alfa are a uniquely positioned marque, and it bothers me that it isn't utilised better. Alfa's are not executive cars like BMW, Merc or Audi, nor are they mass market fodder like Ford or Toyota. Alfa Romeo, to me, has the same historical roots as Ferrari or Lotus, albeit with broader appeal. AR is a sports car brand at heart, but with a 'usable' sports cars.
Personally, I cannot wait to see what the Alfa techs can do with a Chrysler RWD platform. If there work with the 'Holden' V6 is anything to go by, it should be a ripper.

[L4OMEO]

Fair call, agree with that.

I still have reservations about how good a donor Chrysler chassis would be, but as you say it's just the starting point. At least it would give Alfa a RWD platform to work with, something they can't currently do on their own.

Rory

[aggie57]

Having owned 11 Alfa's, of which one (a 1976 Sud Ti) was FWD, personally I would not loose any sleep if Fiat decided tomorrow to stop making the current style of product.  No disrespect to people with 159's etc.

As someone mentioned BMW have managed to take the same formula that Alfa followed in the sixties and make it hugely successful.  Drive a current M3 and see what a modern GTV6 should be like.   Drive a 323i and see what a modern Alfetta sedan could be like.  They of course do have some clunkers (I mean, a 114kw 320i!) and that X6 - don't start me!

Seems to me the rot started at Alfa when the government made them build the Sud in Naples.  Great car but a massive cash drain and no money left for product development.  Everything since has been a compromise.

Just my view of course. 

[L4OMEO]

.... but a massive cash drain and no money left for product development

That's quite possible, although my understanding was that Sud production was heavily government subsidised as an employment programme and Alfa's actual investment was comparatively low. Who knows.

...the rot started

Sigh ... an unfortunately accurate choice of words when discussing the Sud ...

[MD]

Hey Rory, I found you a mass market Alfa. S'gotta 4 litre commodore donk in it..

http://www.tradingpost.com.au/Automotive/Used-Cars/Sports-Performance-Cars/AdNumber=TP003151239?BackToResult=true&AdOnTop=

[L4OMEO]

Ker-ist Mike, don't do that to me after I've just eaten!!!

'Beats most cars on the road" .... at what, wasting valuable real estate???

Oh hang on, it's got a "Funky 80's digital dash". I stand corrected.

Where do you find this stuff???

[wetprickles]

Hey Rory, I found you a mass market Alfa. S'gotta 4 litre commodore donk in it..

http://www.tradingpost.com.au/Automotive/Used-Cars/Sports-Performance-Cars/AdNumber=TP003151239?BackToResult=true&AdOnTop=

Geez MD, lets not go there. Chrysler must be able to develop a chassis Alfa could use, rear drive platforms as well. Theres plenty of V6's and 4's to choose from. Rumours of detuned Ferrari and Maserati engines must also be an alternative [perhaps in top of line models]. All is left to do is press some body panels into modern Alfa forms [reflections of 159, Mito and 8C ]and fit them out with a little Alfa flair. Where Alfa must get some input is in the handling, cause its the handling that separates the Europeans from the rest of the world.

Leon

[Darryl]

And my guess is that what they do do to them, is very little

When Alfa first got their hands on the donor GM engine they described it as "an inanimate lump of metal" and comprehensively re-engineered it.  Alfa's version by all accounts is vastly better, haven't driven one myself - any comments from owners?

I test drove one, loved everything about the car (159 Q4) except the engine (well - I thought the manual trans ratios were weird too).... For what an alfa with a V6 costs (compared to a lesser spec Alfa) teh engine needs to be a lot better... Didn't buy it... Thats just one opinion of course, but it just wasn't enough of an alfa from the drivers seat.

[lombardi]

Just saw on italiano news,Fiats plant in sicilia will close down in the near future-and GUESS WHO IS INTERESTED IN PURCHASING THE FACTORY- Cherry s--t from China,the trouble is these big western companies are to blame,-in the endeavour of more profits and capitalist greed, they put aside history,common sense and respect for the local workforce and the superior craftmanship.Rgrdss and BUON NATALE.

[alfagtv100 (Biggus)]

Fiat's Alfa Romeo not up for sale: CEO
DETROIT (Reuters) - Fiat SpA (FIA.MI) Chief Executive Sergio Marchionne said on Monday the company's Alfa Romeo brand is not up for sale and that he understands its shortcomings and is working to determine a strategic direction for the luxury sports car unit.
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE60A3XS20100111