Newbie, help which is the one to own... 105 1750 series 1 or 105 2000 ltr...

[Silver105]

Hello all,

I have been drooling over the 105 series GTV for years and have finally made a decision to buy one. However, the more Alfa owners I speak to at classic car shows, the more I change my mind about which model to get. Owners of 105 2ltrs tell me it's the one to have for the power, where as Series 1 1750's owners tell me that with those funky seats and clean lines of the interor, this is the model to restore as it will be the one to rise in most in value.

The other urban Alfa myth I have been told is that I should only buy a pre 1970 car, as after that date Alfa Romeo had a deal with the Russians for supply of steel and it was this steel that was the dodgy ( melted down tanks ) steel that lead to all the rust issues with that 1970-1980 generation of alfa's. Should I place any reference on this ?

The other issue I'm interested in is what would a decent price be for a "great condition car" vs "a fully restored (nut and bolt ) car"?
I'm thinking 15K to 20 K for a good condition car to 30-35 for a fully restored? Are these reasonable ?

Last point is that I'm on the hunt for a clean 105, either of these two models I'll look at but very keen on either Silver, Blue and obviously red. Happy to look at different price points and will pay top dollar for exceptional vehicles ?

[Davidm1600]

Hi Silver, I will preface my comments by 'fessing up and noting I own a '69 1750 GTV series 1.  I have owned my GTV since '97, and it was my daily driver for the first 11 years of ownership, so I have both some bias but as well some level of experience with 105 GTVs.  Over the years, I have been lucky to drive a range of 105s including GTVs, but as well Giulia Supers, Berlinas and spiders.  I currently am in a very long restoration of a '69 Super as well.

Ok so to your questions and while some aspects may be factual others are simply opinions.  I will start though with the basic premise.  All 105 GTVs (be they stepnose sprints, veloce sprints or juniors) let alone smooth nose 1750s, (series 1 & 2), juniors (1300/1600) and 2Ls are all fun to drive, great looking (IMO) and have the potential for a level of investment gain.  I am not commenting on GTAs as they are in a different camp and are the ultimate. 

However, from what I have observed over the years some GTVs are more likely to appreciate faster than others. Let me explain.  In  the first instance Stepnose GTVs are probably the most collectable, though they are also mostly the oldest and so hence their level of sophistication is possibly less than the later models (I am generalising slightly since Stepnose 1300 Juniors were made up until I think around 1969-'70.)  Smoothnose juniors are probably the less valuable but again a superbly restored junior is still a sound investment.

From what I have generally read over the years in terms of collectability, the series 1 1750 GTV with the flying buttress seats, comes next and after that probably there is not a lot of difference between the series 2 1750 & 2L.  However, I will also note that excellent condition 2L GTVs are up there in price with similar condition 1750s here in Aus so perhaps there is not much in it.

Hence my comment re personal preference.  For me I like the series 1 1750 better than the series 2 and 2L because of the interior (the seats), and the earlier style rounder bumpers. Similarly I like the dash/console, original steering wheel and grill setup , and front and small taillight.  Against this, the 2L engine is slightly more powerful and definitely has more torque than a 1750, but purists will argue that the 1750 revs better than the 2L (in standard form).  Truthfully there is not much discernable difference in outright power, but yes from my experience slightly more torque.  I had a 2L Berlina for many years. 

From memory, the series 2 1750 and 2L GTVs have the dual brake circuit over the earlier cars so in theory should brake better.  Similarly, some 2L GTVs came with a LSD, which is kind of useful in the corners.

If you read some of the many books on 105 series GTVs, ie. John Tiplers' Giulia Coupe GT&GTA, Pat Braden & Jim Weber Alfa Romeo Giulia History and restoration, or even the Brooklands series Alfa Romeo Giulia Coupes '63-76 ( i have others as well), you will get a lot of factual information on the differences between the models.

As to the urban myth, I am not really sure when the Italian car industry changed over to Russian steel, and quite frankly I wouldn't put too much emphasis on this as they all can rust, from early to late model 105s.  The real problem is that they weren't made to last for ever, and hence the level of paint protection underneath and in the many cavity sections was sparse to say the least.  I have seen this same issue on Fiats and Lancias, let alone Mercs, Jags etc etc from the period.

Re the rust issue, look really closely at the condition of the bodywork of any GTV you are considering.  They rust in the floors around the pedals and LHS front footwell, also check the cills, bottom of doors (they can rust both in the outer skin and the door frame), rear wheel arches, front sway bar mounts, bottom of rear guards, around the fuel tank, the spare wheel well, and then also around the front/rear windscreen, as well as along./under the rear side windows.  And that is just for starters.  I have seen some real horror stories on-line on the Alfabb restoration threads.

As to your question regarding, to buy the perfectly restored car vrs doing it yourself.  I guess it comes down to the size of your bank account, skills/experience, time, space etc.  The cost of restoring a 105 GTV is unlikely to be a bankable investment.  That is, if you want a full nut and bolt restoration, you should count on needing to spend upwards of $20K, given that you will need to replace all the rubbers, lights, probably some panels/repairs, paintwork, mechanicals, electricals and trim.  I know as I am counting on having invested some $25k in my Super by the time it is finished. Let me give you a couple of examples of costs, bodywork done on my Super given it was really really rusty cost me approx $6K and the paintjob was rubbish and will need to be done again. Full gearbox rebuild parts alone cost $1100, seats retrimmed in Connolly leather $2200, all the new rubber trims, lights etc $1-1.5K, I still am waiting on getting my doorcards back from the trimmer, but have an engine rebuild, suspension, tyres, and finally the proper repaint (which I estimate will cost approx $6-7K).

Your estimate on the type of price for different condition cars is about spot on from my observations.  I paid $7K for my GTV, which was tired but presentable.  It now needs a full restoration.

As to looking for examples, keep an eye out on the Alfa club for sale sections, carsales/carpoint etc and Ebay.  Good luck and hopefully the above will give you some insight.  I am sure others could add heaps more advice on what to consider.  Dave

[Silver105]

Dave, thanks for such a detailed response. To be honest the Stepnose is my other must have... list is growing the more research I do. However they are hard to come buy in good condition and never in the colour combination I like. I have been tracking one for sale in carsales in Canberra but for 19k she looks good but with no engine shot I think she is orginal and hence would need a restoration sooner rather than later.

As for restorations quotes, if your going to get away with 25k for your Super then your doing well. I have read some other threads where some members talk about 45k for a full restoration to mint condition. Hence I am keen on investing in something where most of the hard work is done, especially the rust work, protecting the bar metal and respraying, not to mention electrics and gearbox.

What are peoples thoughts about getting a decent 105 but not in your preferred colour and then respraying it and doing the interior ?? their just seems to be loads of white cars around but I'm looking for the below colour scheme and tan enterior and I know I'm just not going to find it. Hence do I get a car, then do the paint job and interior ?? Does changing the colour ( bare metal ) alter the value that much ?  This is just perfect....http://www.classicandperformancecar.com/front_website/octane_interact/modelpicture.php?id=3276

I think I'll head down to Lygon Street on wednesday (alfa display during F1 week) and see if I can get lucky with any beauties for sale...

Thanks for the comments
Cheers
John