Let's gas it up

[MD]

Now that Alfesta is over and people are kicking back, I think we need a bit of controversy to stimulate some debate over fuel prices and how we are all led up the garden path.

I am told we have some of the biggest reserves of natural gas on the planet. A sufficeintly good fuel to run all our internal combustion engines (and power stations)which by the way would include all sorts of stuff like stand-by generators, pumps, train locos, trucks, motorcycles, cars, you name it.

The thing is, we own the gas but we are selling it by the planet load to overseas buyers which on the one hand is fair enough. However what is dummer than dog poo is that we are then buying expensive crude from overseas and being subject to market fluctuations all over the place when we could be using our own fuel !!.

If the Australian motor fleet all ran on gas, our gornement would control the price of fuel and not the stockmarket and they would be answerable to the electorate. Furthermore if everybody ran on the same fuel, it would set a level playing field and provide opportunities to develop technologies in Australia to enhance performance through natural competition amongst brands.

It's a biggie, but think of the money our nation would save !!!

Oh, and for you environmentalists, did I mention that gas is the cleanest internal combustion fuel there is apart from alcohols?

[NigelC]

Some more reading on the issue. http://www.oes.net.au/compressed-natural-gas-cng-system.shtml

CNG or compressed natural gas is certaianly a viable alternative to petroleum but like electric cars, there are limitations.

Vehicles using compressed natural gas have about half the range of a petrol car using the same size tank.  Doubling the fuel capacity isn't really an option particularly for dual fuel vehicles which need both fuel systems.

CNG is a less energetic fuel than petroleum so there is a significant drop in horsepower from the same size engine.  Large vehicles, with large engines deal well with this but it's unlikely that we'll see a 5.0l V8 in a toyota Echo.

The other inconvenience is the time taken to re-fuel.  Filling a CNG container takes time, if you want to stop to re-fuel twice as often as you do now and take 1/2 to 1 hour doing so, then CNG is OK.

Trucks and buses can work using CNG and a number of cities in Australia use CNG bus fleets already.

Overall, MD is right, there are significant economic and environmental advantages to be gained by using CNG but another technology, using hydrogen (derived from natural gas which is mostly CH4) is, I think, a better way forward.

[spieret]

I run my V6 Pajero on LPG and the 60 ltr tank gets me around 250km city driving. There is a drop in power but not too bad, If i get stuck while on the beach or in the mud, then i will switch to petrol for more grunt.

It takes no more than 5 mins to fill the tank, but yes petrol pumps out quicker. Not sure where you got the 1/2 hour to an hour figure from.

LPG, i'm told, also lubricates your motor slightly when using it so your engine will last longer.

Would i ever convert an Alfa to LPG, i might be tempted if it was just for commuting and if a kit was available for that model. After all, it's 68c per litre.

Would i convert my next 4x4 again, not sure on that, i think i'd prefer to get a diesel engine. It's great for dual fuel long range driving, but to fully replace petrol, i don't think it's ready yet. I think they need to improve the technology.

[NigelC]

CNG and LPG are different substances and I think MD was referring to CNG which is the substance that Australia has sh**loads of.

As I understand, LPG is generally extracted from oil reserves and in (very) limited quantilties from 'wet' gas fields.

Natural gas can be used in its gaseous form and is often called town-gas; it can be compressed and is called CNG or it can be purified and cooled to -163C and is referred to as liquefied natural gas or LNG.  That is the form that is used for export because it shrinks to 1/600th of its gaseous volume.

CNG ( Compressed Natural Gas ) is usually around 70-90% methane with 10-20% ethane, 2-8% propanes, and decreasing quantities of the higher hydro-carbons up to
pentane. 

LPG ( Liquefied Petroleum Gas ) is predominantly propane with iso-butane and n-butane; it's effectively a lighter form of petroleum which is predominantly octane. It has one advantage over CNG, the tanks do not have to be high pressure, and the fuel is stored as a liquid hence the speed in filling tanks. CNG uses high pressure and takes a lot longer. 

[spieret]

I stand corrected

[wankski]

i don't get the point... it's one thing to make obsolete old bus and perhaps even taxi stocks and switch to LNG for those, but market change in a market as small as Aus?

dun think so..

u'd have to have every major car maker adopt the fuel, that's not gunna happen. Frankly i don't see the point when you're just expending another finite resource...

long term we have electric, and perhaps we'll have some CNG powerstations to power them...

(ok, i'm gunna say it... but.... perhaps we should nuke it up?)

<flamesuit on>

[MD]

wankski, forget the world catering for us mate. We have to cater for ourselves. The so called level playing field in trading has screwed everybody and it aint finished yet. The farmers are screwed. The industrial base is screwed. All we are doing is selling off the farm bit by bit cheap and buying back expensive commodities that we could have made ourselves if the means to make them hadn't been evapourated. So no, this is a radical idea that needs radical plans for it to work. The same old same old wont do dick. Australia would have to retool its industrial base to cater for itself and revise the necessary industries to get the job done. Think of the growth opportunities and the employment it would bring. The dual fuel industry would go nuts while the dedicated gas power plant industry would find a new huge internal market and probably an export one too.

Think along the lines of California that brings in state legislation for say car emissions and next thing everybody needs to comply or you walk. That's a bit out there but I am just trying to get you see the big picture.

Stealing someone elses favourite saying on the Forum, can you dig it ? 

[Sheldon McIntosh]

The other inconvenience is the time taken to re-fuel.  Filling a CNG container takes time, if you want to stop to re-fuel twice as often as you do now and take 1/2 to 1 hour doing so, then CNG is OK.

I also don't know where you get that idea from.  In NZ, CNG was very popular in the 1980s, around 10% of cars were converted to run on it, and then there were maybe a quarter of that number that ran on LPG.  I worked in a gas station for a little while when I was a young fulla, and it didn't take very long at all to fill a tank of CNG.  Maybe a minute longer than a petrol tank, 2 at the most.

I can absolutely confirm that it causes a significant loss of power though.  A friend of mine used to live up a very steep hill, and he bought a 1.1 litre Escort, converted to CNG.  He had to use 1st gear to get up that hill.

[wankski]

Think along the lines of California that brings in state legislation for say car emissions and next thing everybody needs to comply or you walk. That's a bit out there but I am just trying to get you see the big picture.

thing is aus is so far behind britian and cali with respect to mot and smog respectively. Those jurisdictions have a long history of tight emissions control (cali since the 60s), that it's not realistic to go from zero to effectively governing fuel use type and all the rest of it...

your plan could have worked if anyone actually cared about emissions (i.e. carbon tax), but since we got a watered down trading system, good luck.

i'm just over the internal combustion engine... it is shit.... i've loved the simplicity of electric since i was a kid... they get a lil' hot that's it... no tranny, coolant system like petrols do, noise and as alfa owners know, onerous engine maintenance...

the question for AUS is...where are we gunna get our power from? as you point out, we have the worlds largest CNG supply, but we also have a pretty huge pile of uranium too... better than selling it all o/s i think.

[Mat Francis]

i'm just over the internal combustion engine... it is shit.... i've loved the simplicity of electric since i was a kid... they get a lil' hot that's it... no tranny, coolant system like petrols do, noise and as alfa owners know, onerous engine maintenance...

Funnily enough you have more or less summed up everything i like about my cars. None of which are electric. You sure you're on the right forum?

[wankski]

Funnily enough you have more or less summed up everything i like about my cars. None of which are electric. You sure you're on the right forum?

haha, good point. Tho seriously, the ICE has been around for more than 100yrs... the motor for the 21st C is electric.

not to worry - nto happening any time soon... We will see mainstream E85 before we get widespread electric.