164 v 33 v 75

[Frank Musco]

Tony,

I'm so glad you understand the crackle. I can understand normal people wanting to do something about it, tune it out, change exhaust and so on, but myself being not normal, I absolutely love it, drives me crazy, had to get rid of it or my licence was gone. When I first took my daughter for a drive in the car, she actually wanted me to keep doing it, and one thing you should not do is encourage me in an Alfa, again equals no licence.

About the AC, I'm actually unsure, so bear with me, I'll check it out on my 16V on the weekend and see where the air blows out of.
In Melbourne I just put up with the occasional hot day, never use AC, never taken much notice of how it works.
Cheers

P.S  Whats all this talk about eating shit??  You kinky weirdos. I've heard of dogs eating their own shit, does that help you out?

Pardon me Dehne, as far as Statistics go, now thats shit talking, you should always be cautious of stats. The real deal is lap times. Stats are a marketing tool which clever people manipulate to make something appear as what its not. I thought Alfa people understood that.

Honestly, I was just stirring the pot about which would be faster with respect to the 33 and 75. Firstly, no way is the 164 faster, it just too heavy.  To get the 164 to corner anywhere near the smaller cars, you will need massive tyres, so its not going to have corner speed. Unless it was that thing with the motor in the back, but its not, I'm talking STANDARD, on STANDARD road tyres. 164 Manual or whatever.

33 v 75.  Let me dazzle you with real Stats. Thanks for the lap time Paul, gives me something to work with. So 2:14 at Phillip Island, My Standard 86 Alfa Sprint 1490cc, completely standard with all its interior and bodywork does 2:08 with R tyres. R tyres are worth 6 seconds at the Island so for this example the lap times are IDENTICAL. So its not a big ask to get 2:14 with the 33 16 V, have some faith. You may have noticed a red 33 16V at the Island last year or so, (I think his name is Domenic), The car has R tyres and no interior and its lap was 2:02. What the... yes thats right. He said to me the car was basically standard, and I had a good look and would have to agree with him. Do you know how difficult it is to get a 2:02, very, very , very, difficult. You know, yes you do Sheldon, with a very fast 2:03 at Alfa Island with the 90 on those slicks. Ahhh slicks. So put the 33 on road tyres and it translates to 2:08. Thougths?

What if messed with your minds and said the cars have got nothing to do with it. Maybe its all in the TYRES?  What now?
OR maybe the tyres have got nothing to do with, it is all the DRIVER?

Which is the best car now?   They are as good as each other, after all they are ALFAS

HAPPY BIRTHDAY 100 years of Engineering Excellence.

Cheers
Frank.

[Frank Musco]

  Nice photos Pep, now I'll have to turn the computer off and go for a drive. 

Cheers Paul, thats what its all about.

[Sheldon McIntosh]

Whats all this talk about eating shit??  You kinky weirdos. I've heard of dogs eating their own shit, does that help you out?

Now you're calling the 164Q a dog?  Steady on.


Just how standard is that red 33 Frank?  You must be a terrible driver (and we all know how far from the truth that is) if he can get to within 2 seconds of you in a "basically standard" car, because your car is a long, long, long, long way from standard, and would probably have at least as much as power as a 16V wouldn't it?  And yes I do know how difficult it is to get a second quicker at PI.

I reckon a good driver who knew PI and was on good road tyres could do a 2.10 in a 75 TS without too much difficulty.  I was doing 10s in my 90 while it was standard other than Konis and Rs, and the LSD and better balance would easily account for those differences.

Why do you say 6 secs difference with R tyres?  I always thought around 2 secs, maybe 3 at the Island?  It might be different with the FWD cars but there's no way it's 6 secs in a transaxle car.

The only meaningful comparison I have is that in my completely standard 90 but on R tyres, and my first time at the Island, I was faster than a 33 1.7 8V, which was driven by a very accomplished steerer, by around a second.  And the 33 was not standard, don't know about Rs, but it had very stiff suspension.

I reckon we need to take this to the track Frank.  I'll get a TS, you bring your 33.

What if messed with your minds and said the cars have got nothing to do with it. Maybe its all in the TYRES?  What now?
OR maybe the tyres have got nothing to do with, it is all the DRIVER?

Which is the best car now?   They are as good as each other, after all they are ALFAS

HAPPY BIRTHDAY 100 years of Engineering Excellence.

Cheers
Frank.

Stop messing with my mind Frank, I thought I was having an acid flashback for a while there.  And it's true, they are all fantastic, they are all Alfas, which is the point I was trying to make in the long-running series in the magazine over the last two years.  Even the "worst" Alfas are absolutely bloody fantastic, especially on the track.

[Frank Musco]

Good Stuff Sheldon,

They're all good. Too difficult to make comparisons.

Even if we put all three on the track, we would need to get someone like The Stig to drive them, and then we really don't know whats been done to the cars even if they are all 'standard'. The LOSERS would always complain about the winner.

Don't get me started on excuses.

[Frank Musco]

I cant help myself.

The 33 16V is still my pick for the fastest.

The question mark remains...

[Sheldon McIntosh]

At Winton maybe, and probably on a twisty road;  but at PI or Sandown, it'll be the TS.  Meanwhile, the 164Q is sitting back, arms crossed, with a shit-eating grin....

[L4OMEO]

Lots of interesting speculation. And a few good stats too 

I think the comments on tyres are on the mark – the bigger, heavier 164 is going to ask much harder questions of its rubber and frankly its standard 195s are completely inadequate for the track. A colleague of mine regularly took his 164Q out on track days at our local circuit (3.4km, very technical, quite twisty) and with 205s posted some respectable times in comparison with the other standard cars there (and much faster than a 33 16V with a better driver). It's limiting factors were its corner speed and brakes, but don't discount its straight-line performance advantage (road-tests in the UK saw the 33 16V get from 0-60mph in 8.9, 0-100mph in 26.5, while the 164Q did 0-60mph in 7.0 and 0-100mph in 18.0. Out of interest, the 75TS did 0-60mph in 9.3, can't recall the 0-100mph time).

The only comparative testing for laptimes I've seen for these 3 cars was done at the old Castle Combe circuit in the UK – on separate test days two different magazines clocked 1:20 for the 164Q, 1:22 for the 75TS, and 1:25 for the 33 16V. Yeah yeah yeah different days, different drivers, blah blah blah, I'm not suggesting this is the definitive answer, but it gives an indication that perhaps the Q shouldn't be discounted quite so quickly   

[L4OMEO]

Right back at ya Paul 

Yeah, the 75 (in 4-cylinder form anyway) is beautifully balanced, but for me it rolls too much in standard form and I've never been a fan of the low-geared steering. At least the former can be easily fixed. The local Zender importer back in NZ had a 75TS with mild suspension mods, engine tweaked to just over 160bhp, and wider/lower profile tyres, and boy was that quick at track days.

Cheers mate!
Rory

[Frank Musco]

O.K, I know I could not take a standard 33 16V under 2 minutes at Phillip Island. It took me 8 years to get the 1500 Sprint from 2:08 down to 1:59.

Also, I don't think the 164 is a dog, just joking around with the wording of a previous post. My Father used to own one, and I loved driving it around. You might remember I posted "166  mistake" because my Father bought a 166 in limp mode. This car has been running for quite a while now and its also a fantastic car to drive, sit in, and generally just to look at it, absolutely beautiful. Hopefully one day I'll pinch it for the weekend, put some numbers on it.

I'd like to go on record and say, Standard 75TS going under 2 mins?, Not the average racecar driver is going to be able to do that, only the exceptional racecar driver will be able to do that, and the average bloke that does the occasional sprint is not even going to get close. Ive been passing them for years in my taped up sprint.

Cheers
Frank

[L4OMEO]

Taped-up Sprints rule, Frank! And congrats on your 100th post.

Rory

[Frank Musco]

Cheers Rory, I didn't even notice about 100. Shouldn't be posting for the rest of the year. Too late now.

Sounds like you have taped up a coupe yourself. My favorite Alfa, the Alfasud Sprint Veloce 81-82. My daily driver. Puts a smile on my face everyday.

Would you have any Zender rims, the 15x7, they put on sprints, that you want to sell? or know of any for sale as I have two good ones and two cracked.

Frank.

[L4OMEO]

Yeah I've taped-up the odd Sprint in my time. The last Sprint I had was the proverbial barn-find - was traveling with friends in the country & stopped to visit friends of theirs about 300km out of Wellington when I realised I wouldn't make my flight back to Christchurch. Their friends had an old 82 Sprint in a shed on the farm, long story short I bought it for $100 (plus another $200 for a set of the teledial alloys and a bootful of other spares) and drove it home (about 8 hours plus a 4 hour ferry trip). Only had 66,000km on the clock, looked a bit faded but underneath was a solid, genuine low-mileage, never-been-crashed car. Loved it.

The last one I actually taped up was a Sud sedan - it weighed just over 700kg because most of it had rusted away, and I had to tape the boot shut so scrutineers couldn't see how rotten it actually was. Can't believe it ever got through, but I had more fun on the track in that car than any other since.

No, I don't condone that sort of behaviour, and yes I'm far more sensible than that these days 

Sorry, can't help with the rims but I'll keep my ears open. 

Rory

[Frank Musco]

Thanks Rory.

Thats a great story. You definitely know how to have fun.

Cheers
Frank.

[L4OMEO]

You definitely know how to have fun

Absolutely 

BTW for anyone still interested, the 0-100mph time for the 75TS was 28.7 seconds, or over 10 seconds longer than the 164Q. Might well balance out the 75s better, err, balance.

[philpot]

Hello, Frank, re the zender wheels. There was a, 85 33ti for sale late last year (sept?) on ebay that had them on, almost got the car just for the 15's! Cost of getting it over (from the west) put me off tho.  Dont know if you can contact person through ebay, or if they even still have the car/rims. Username was '1962nitro' item number: #170380096536. Bloke, lived in Northam, WA. Have a Zender brochure with a fully kitted out Sprint in it....