33 16V Motronic Fuel Quality Setting Relay

[philpot]

Gday All,

Theres been a thread re: the alfa 75 fuel quality/octane setting for the Australian Spec Motronic ML 4.1 Fuel Injection System happening in General Discussion. As this is the same fundamental system, I understand, to the 16V 33 the info may be applicable.  Have only checked diagrams and schematics for this model as yet.

http://www.alfaclubvic.org.au/forum/index.php?topic=3940.0

http://www.users.on.net/~craigf/

Thanks Frank, found the 'Fuel Quality Plug' red connector on my spares/wrecked car. In Alfa 33 16V's it's in the ancilliaries tub, passenger side, left of battery coming out of wiring loom which heads into the firewall and onto the computer. Wreck didn't have any relay, blue(91+ RON-Catalytic fitted), yellow(95+ RON-Catalytic fitted) red(95+ RON-no cat) or otherwise in it. ('Open'-98+ RON-no Cat?).
Will check road car tomorrow when bus/train to melb, road 16v is in there at mo, pick up tomorrow (thank god, tis been 6 weeks....) Will ask Patrick his opinion of the whole thing before messin' with it....been a bloody epic to deal with my 'New' car bought 3 months ago.  Turns out it was modded, chip, airflow meter, god knows what else.....If it had been done well then fine, but used heaps of fuel, ran way too rich, and sooted up its cat/exhaust.  

Would've been good to have known this before buying, like when had pre-purchase done by another, alfa specialist........
Oh the bills, The BILLS !!!!

Car, Injection and wiring diagrams and manuals are available for download at: http://alfaromeo33.extra.hu/

Cheers , Phil

[Frank Musco]

Hi Phil,

Grouse!, thanks mate.

Found the fuel quality relay on my 33 16V, 04/1992 ZAR907000. My car has the blue relay, with a wire connecting pins 85 86 and 87.

Have not started the car with the relay removed. When I get the chance I will map the original ignition curve, then remove the blue relay switch and remap the ignition curve to see the difference.

Photos of where I found it (as you suggested), and inside the blue relay.

[philpot]

Hi Frank,
Yup! That's it. Co-incidentally when speaking to Patrick on the phone after my last post he mentioned just this relay. Mentioned my car wont run well unless its removed...but thats another story!
Apparently completely removed has the most advance and richest mixture. Funny how both mine didn't have a relay fitted, out of a sample of two thats 100%!
It also 'disconnects' the readings from the Lambda sensor to the system.
So, my car is running the 4th setting, 97+ RON. Probably doesn't do the cat much good though. After many hours on the dyno trying to get the thing sorted, thats the way 'it' likes it.... (aha....aha....)!!!
Oh, they reckon in the past (?) my 'new' 19 year-old has had its right bank cams (inlet/exhaust) swapped by mistake, that side is working less hard. Less vacuum. But it will have to wait till drop engine out in the near future to physically measure the cams...
Joy....
After removing the old 'sports' exhaust sytem with the standard one off my spares 16V, it gained 12hp at the wheels!!!
Car now runs much better than before...just not quite as it should. Though the whole experience makes me appreciate my '86 33 ti even more now!
Yeah, depends how well your 16V is running, if its sweet,  (or if mine had been....) i'd just've gone straight to the 95+ setting with Cat, and Lambda operational. My 16V shows the difference in settings must be quite marked between stage one and stage four.
Mine is a work in progress, just a bit more work and progress than i expected...
I'll be more than interested to hear how your experiment goes on your 33 16V!
Cheers, Phil

[Frank Musco]

Phil,

I have wanted to put one of these 16V engines into the race car, although they are not what I call cost effective for the limited knowledge that I have. Not when compared to the 1500's, for my experience.
I have worked out I can get more revs from solid lifters, but I need to be able to read and write to the original ECU, without spending four figures. I have been able to do this with one other ECU, where I have bought a cable and a CD, plugged the ECU to the laptop, and away you go. I use the Air fuel ratio kit from Jaycar, and Oxy sensor from pick a part to re-tune as I like. Also need to get rid of the rev limiter.
Do you know how I can read and write to the original ECU myself ? I have seen chips on the net, but I want to build a race engine, not a fast road engine.

I have taken photos of the ECU and two plugs which are inside the car next to the ECU. Do you know what they are used for? Can I use these to read/write to the ECU?

Cheers Frank.

[Jekyll and Hyde]

Phil,

I have wanted to put one of these 16V engines into the race car, although they are not what I call cost effective for the limited knowledge that I have. Not when compared to the 1500's, for my experience.
I have worked out I can get more revs from solid lifters, but I need to be able to read and write to the original ECU, without spending four figures. I have been able to do this with one other ECU, where I have bought a cable and a CD, plugged the ECU to the laptop, and away you go. I use the Air fuel ratio kit from Jaycar, and Oxy sensor from pick a part to re-tune as I like. Also need to get rid of the rev limiter.
Do you know how I can read and write to the original ECU myself ? I have seen chips on the net, but I want to build a race engine, not a fast road engine.

I have taken photos of the ECU and two plugs which are inside the car next to the ECU. Do you know what they are used for? Can I use these to read/write to the ECU?

Cheers Frank.

Putting a megasquirt on would cost you less than 4 figures, and give you a lot more flexibilty than the standard ecu ever will (remove the AFM for a start, also coil packs etc if you want)....  Bit of a learning curve, but you're up for the challenge aren't you?

[Frank Musco]

Thanks Jekyll and Hyde for the reply,

Yes, I agree, that is cost effective and I have actually done something very similar to my X-1/9. Lots of fun and great learning curve. Basically, got an ECU, connected to a laptop with special cable, got a program to read ECU, and away I went.

Although, my Father keeps telling me to stop re-inventing the wheel, and he says WHY CANT YOU USE THE ORIGINAL COMPUTER AS IT IS ALREADY LOOMED TO THE CAR, and to a degree I agree with him. Hate it when he's right.
So, Father tells me that the original computers should be programmed by the manufacturer to begin with?, this is where I begin to hate him because it makes perfect sense. I don't believe the manufacturer would make different ECU for all models, I think they would make a general ECU and then program it to suit the particular models requirements. For example when a model has the same basic motor, except the capacity is changed, therefore the fuel map would need to be different.

So I think how do they do this?

Is it through the ON BOARD DIAGNOSTIC plugs? OBD Plug pre 1994, and OBD 2 and EOBD 2 for post 94 ?

These are used in basic form by mechanic workshops to do the obvious, and diagnose the cars for faults, and reset engine warning light and air bags and so on...
So can I use a OBD plug to go plug into a laptop, get a special disk (CD to read the data), read the current ECU, change parameters like rev limit and 'FLASH' the corrected data back to the ECU? Isn't the mechanic, programming the ECU when he is getting rid of the engine warning lights and so on, as basic as it seems.

Can anyone tell me if it is possible?

Can anyone tell me from the OBD plugs under the dash on my 33 16V, the ones in my previous post I took photos of, what the wires are? One would be positive 12 volts, one would be a data stream wire, wouldn't it?, and so on...? HELP?

Cheers
Frank.

[philpot]

Struth Frank!  Only just updated to the '90's and fuel injection myself!!

I remember a previous question on this forum subsection asking about plugging into the standard ecu. Only one reply by memory, in the negative...don't know the technical basis behind the response.

Probably not what you want but interesting nonetheless, search on youtube for a 33 16V on a dyno putting out some big figure....on carbs!

Old school yes, but.....

Cheers,  Phil.

[Darryl]

Frank,
Unless you are in it for the challenge, you don't really want to be messing with ancient (in computing terms) tech if you can help it. I second the megasquirt suggestion. But, don't listen to me - no 1st hand knowledge of either - for some info from those who have messed with old Motronic stuff look here: http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/BoschDME/

[Frank Musco]

Phil, I like the old school carbies, so far looks like the easy way to go for these old cars. When I work out which way to go I'll post it, but might take a while. I find webers easy to tune, and timing doesn't change after 4500, and racing doesn't see under 5500 so thats easy too.

Thanks Darryl, any help is appreciated. I'm trying to google my way to an answer.

Cheers Frank

[philpot]

Hi Frank,

The youtube vid was on about is 'Tuned alfa33 16v carbs DYNO PULL 181HP' God! Gotta love the sound of those webbers breathing deep! And the condensation intake mist!!!
Seems like a few have done the carb swap, judging by searching 'alfa 33 16v' or same plus 'carbs' added, on there.
Noticed the one above also had no a/c stuff, also no power steer pump and reservoir, so looks like they ditch that as well.

Agree, if you know carbs really well, and unless u really want to and enjoy the tech process of nutting out the OE or aftermarket injection......carbs are a known. Plus it's already been/being done and with seemingly big results.
AND....You get the BIG SOUND !!!   Sweeeeet....

[Martinsifredi]

Hy guys , after reading all the info on the post, It really is a question of preference, OLD SCHOOL is awesome , especially for that brilliant intake noise etc. But if you choose the TECH route, this is also a VERY rewarding path. You just need to look at Formula 1 from not so long ago when the cars injectors were mounted directly above the intake trumpets . getting off topic but this is an indication of just how fuel injection can be modified to work MAGIC . (please take a look at www.ahmotorsports.co.uk  for some F1 style technology applied to the 16V engine ..  

Getting back to the point if you want to do it the wright way (with a budget in mind) you need to run a UNICHIP piggy back computer. I have used this in the past on my other cars and worked wonders .
please take a look at the link to Autotech engineering and give the guys a call there , I have informed my self already , they have the wiring diagrams for the 16V meaning that they can install the UNICHIP . Last time I got a price from them it was around the $1,500 installed and Dyno tuned . here is the link http://www.autotechengineering.com.au/

I hope this helps ,

Martin