1987 Sprint Veloce

[Mic]

Hi guys,
As a young bloke on little wage and an optimistic mind, I orginally set out to purchase a late 90's/early Noughties GTV or 156.
With the advice of some more experienced alfaholics, I decided against it and began searching for a cheaper, easier to maintain alternative.

Whilst browsing among the numerous Alfa 33's and 75's on carsales, I spotted this little number
http://www.carsales.com.au/all-cars/private/details.aspx?R=9146248&__Qpb=true&Cr=1&__Ns=pCar_PriceSort_Decimal|0||pCar_RankSort_Int32|1||pCar_Make_String|0||pCar_Model_String|0&keywords=&__N=1216%201246%201247%201252%201282%204294967249%201622%20442&silo=1011&seot=1&PriceTo=442&__Nne=15&__No=15&trecs=20&__sid=12AC91711185

I'd put up some photos but I don't know how it works   

It's a 1987 Alfa Sprint Veloce, is there any info you can give me on these things? e.g. Rarity? General idea of replacement parts? Known problems? Redbook is quoting between $1700 and $3900 in a private sale, this one's asking $4900. Is that too much, or could it be neglected considering the quality of that interior 
I know it's a pretty big ask with such little info, but I'll give it a shot.

Cheers guys,
Mic

[Davidm1600]

Mic, I am not sure about you but to me, given the quality of the interior I don't think this is likely to have been a neglected car, on the contrary, it appears to be a really nice example.  I can't imagine why anyone would wish to sell their Alfa for a Ford LTD, but I guess each to their own.

Ok, just really quickly, and especially since there are probably many better qualified people to provide comments on Alfasuds (inc Sprints), the first thing to understand is that Redbook prices are in most instances not realistic in terms of collector cars.  They simply base their valuations on an average for sale records from caryards, and perhaps some private sales as per listings in the papers, websites etc. 

However, is the price listed reasonable or not, I guess it really comes down to the mechanical, body and trim condition of the Sprint.  The number of Kms done can also to an extent influence the value.

What you have there is a late model Sprint, rather than an early 1500.  The later models possibly are considered less rare than the earlier models but in overall terms of rarity, I guess in my mind I don't see Alfasuds/Sprints as being highly collectable at this time.  Having said that, certainly they are disappearing as rust has consumed many and so perhaps with more time they may be considered rarish. 

I also suspect to the Alfa purist collector, early 116 (stainless steel bumper) GTVs, GTV6s and of course oder Alfas (ie. 105s) are the best bet re collectability and increasing values.  My guess is that 156s and modern GTVs will continue to fall in price for a while yet.

Given all that, a good condition late model Sprint, is a nice car to drive and should probably make a good daily driver.  Personally, I would have one over a 33 for instance, but that is me.  I have driven 33s and with my big feet find the pedal gaps too close to be comfortable driving them.  My brother assures me you get used to it, but I didn't over the month I had his 33. 

You ask re the 156, I have one (an '03 model) and it has been mostly very reliable and I enjoy driving it.  However, again if things go wrong, I suspect that it would be more expensive to run than say a Sprint.  In addition a 156 is totally different car from a Sprint, given the difference in ages/technology etc.  156s have airbags, traction control, stability control, decent AC (well later models do), anti lock brakes, power sterring etc etc.  I guess the good thing with the 156 now though is that it is an affordable car to buy, and the same is true for the late 90s GTVs.  Having driven all versions of the GTV/6/Spider I can attest that they are fun to drive. 

It is possibly a little difficult to make any recommendations as to which Alfa you should go for, given your age and income, but maybe the best thing is to test drive the Sprint, a 33, a 156 and a GTV to see which works for you.  The other thing to do is perhaps talk to an Alfa mechanic, there are plenty around in Melb and also don't forget re insurance costs.  This too may dictate your choice in the end.   

Goodluck which ever way you go.  Oh and join the club.  Dave

[Mic]

Thanks for the info Dave, I've tried doing some research on the car and find similar examples to judge it by but most seem pretty average in comparison, however I did spot a very clean example on Uniquecarsales for a similar price.

Here's the link if you're interested, http://www.uniquecarsales.com.au/pls/unique/!unique_content.enquiry?current_rec=3&page_number=1&vehicle_id=9169625&total_rec=16&sort_type=2&make_id=35&year_max=1994&price_max=10000&trans_id=2

I'm also eyeing off an Alfetta 2000 for half the price on the same site.

Problem is, I live in Townsville, so test driving something in Vic becomes rather difficult...
I'm willing to take a jump on a good example and drive down to pick it up, but I know there are risks involved with that so I'd rather gather as much info on a car to get an idea on whether or not it's going to cost me an arm and a leg in case something is a bit umm, off. 

After all, that's the fun part about buying second hand right? 

[Davidm1600]

Hey Mic, sorry about the Vic centric thing.  I thought you were based there, and was extremely busy at work when I posted my response to check.

I totally understand where you are coming from, re looking at perhaps buying a car interstate. I did this when I bought my 156 sportwagon.  I had never seen it and all I knew about it was from the description on carsales.com.au and from talking to the dealer.  I took a leap of faith it would be ok. Luckily for me it has been good and not caused me any major grief, and we had a fun surfin safari road trip home from Sydney to Hobart as a benefit of this.

But yes indeed the joys of buying a second hand car, of which I have had more than a few !!!

I will have to check out the link you mention out of interest.  Sprints to date not been too high on my radar, but that is not to say I don't appreciate them. 

I have had a couple of Alfettas (GT and an early sedan) and have driven quite a number of them over the years.  A good Alfetta (sedan or GTV) is a nice beast and definitely worth considering.  Needless to say sedans are generally much cheaper than GTVs.  Though not necessarily any worse to drive.  I actually enjoyed in many ways my sedan more than my GT.  The one thing I can say is that an Alfetta should be easier for a home mechanic to repair than say for instance a modern Alfa (ie. 156 etc). 

I think your approach is sound, in gathering info, on the different models, including running costs etc. 

From my perspective though, in truth don't be put off say the extra cost of owning and running an Alfa in comparison to say a Japanese or Aussie car, for the compensation is more than offset in the pure pleasure of driving and even working on an Italian car, be it an Alfa or whatever.  It is hard to define it but once infected by the virus it is so intoxicating to let go of.  Well that is my experience over the past 30 years. 

I too ran both Fiats and Alfas as a student with no money and still somehow survived.  The journey has been great and I don't regret it for a second.  I like the idea of being different.  Hopefully, you understand what I may mean. 

All the best. Dave

[Frank Musco]

Mic, a couple of very nice Sprints your looking at. You're on the right track looking at $4000-$5000 as you will find a well looked after example which will require minor work while you drive it.

For consideration:

When was the last cam belt change? Where the tensioners changed?

Has the clutch been changed? Condition of second and third gear change?

Have the original cloth braided fuel lines been replaced? Very important, on the red sprint it looks as if they haven't. These are usually overlooked, even on a well looked after car. The accelerator pumps in the weber carbies can also leak if not changed from new.

Driveshafts very strong and durable, only problems occur when a broken cv boot remains unchecked, had a few over the years.

Bearings on front struts which allow movement relative to the spring, can begin to fail and steering becomes erratic.

I have driven a 1986 Sprint for many years, and while sprinting it, was exceptionally reliable. For the past two years I have a 1982 sprint and it's also reliable, not to mention fun to drive.

Be patient and take a few for a drive,  Good luck.

[Sheldon McIntosh]

Hi Mic

First up, congrats on the optimistic mind, and also the realistic mind in deciding to look into older Alfas, I like the dedication!!

I think $5k is not far off top dollar for a Sprint at the moment, and those two you've posted are very nice examples.  The Sprint is a very nice car to drive.  They're not overly quick in a straight line, but they sound fast, and the handling is amazing.  Most of the time it's hard to tell if they're front or rear-wheel-drive.  They're a strange beast in terms of rarity and future value though, quite hard to pick IMHO.  While normal 'Suds are definitely already rising in value (if you can find a good one), Sprints almost seem to be a little bit unloved in comparison.  A good one will never lose it's value, so that's one benefit over buying a VZ Commodore or whatever, but I think it will be a while before they appreciate to any great degree.  They're a pretty simple car to work on, and probably a good first car to learn to work on.  As far as I know there are no parts that are prohibitively expensive, in my experience most problems on these are reasonably easy to fix, but can be time-consuming.  Alfa mechanics are expensive......

Look EVERYWHERE for rust, that's the one thing that isn't easy or cheap to fix.

I would keep researching if I were you, and look into the 75, both Twinspark and 3.0 litre versions, and an Alfetta coupe. 

The 75 is arguably a better drive than the Sprint, but it depends what you're into.  For around town or for tight twisty stuff, the Sprint is a lot more fun and will keep you excited at legal speeds.  The 75s will be 90% as much fun in the tight stuff, but far more capable and fast when the roads start to open out a bit.  A really good 75 TS or 3.0 can be had for around $5k, and again, a well looked after example won't lose value.  At this stage it's debateable how far they will rise in value though.  The 75s are a bit more complex than a Sprint and can develop some expensive problems if they're not maintained properly, and some of the parts are getting scarce.

If I was in your shoes I'd be looking at getting into a well looked after Alfetta coupe.  They're the next Alfa that will start to raise in value in my opinion.  I'm still kicking myself for being half a day late to buy a one-owner example last year.  They're a beautiful car, reasonably easy to work on, and will attract just the right type of person are a pussy magnet.  They need to be checked very carefully for rust, and donuts can be expensive to replace, but other than that I don't think there is anything too hard to replace on them (but there probably is).  Running one of these as a daily driver would be slightly more challenging than the other cars, but not an insurmountable problem with some careful maintenance.

One very important thing to remember with Alfas, is that they are a quite specialised car and that they need to be looked after a lot more than most other cars.  Go into Alfa ownership knowing this, being prepared to learn how to work on it yourself, join your local club (seriously, $100 a year will save you thousands), and soon enough you will begin to see why we're all so crazy about them.

Good luck, and keep us informed.  We're here to help, we all love seeing young guys getting enthused about Alfas.

[Mic]

Really appreciating the feedback guys,

The Alfetta sedan I was looking at literally disappeared last night and from what I've seen so far, most GTV's seem to be a little out of my price range unless I want to deal with rust and dents. Which I sorta don't.

I just emailed a guy from AROCA Queensland about an '89 33 Boxer. No photo's on the ad, but it was listed as 'clean' for just $1500. That leaves me with a fair amount of cash if anything needs replacing or repairing. But no solid decisions thus far.

I also (don't scoff  ) might look into buying some new rims for the car as I find the standards fitted from that era a bit umm, ugly 
Nothing wild, maybe just some new GT style five-spokers. Taking into account tyre sizes and the like.

So far I'm still hunting, we're selling our old Festiva back in Adelaide soon so hopefully I can get some money in pocket out of that. I have a serious problem of spotting gorgeous examples of cars in pictures and then set my sights on something similar (optimistic mind), usually priced above what I'll earn in a few years on my pay.

Thanks for the info on the Sprints too Frank, I'll be sure to keep it handy whilst shopping around.

I've also seen a couple of GTV6's on these forums for about 5k, don't know if they're still available, or what kind of condition exactly, but I might keep them in mind too.

Thanks again guys,
Mic

[massiveluvbuddy67]

Hi Mic,
IMHO your intial choi,ce is spot on. Frank is a legend on these cars too so he has the good oil. The white one looks great and has low Kms AND is being sold with an RWC which means the car is probably in good. The interior is brillaint. I sense the owner is fastidious - more good news. For piece of mind one of our club sponsors has a shop very close to Pasco Vale and could do a pre-purchase for piece of mind (Marenello Motors). This will be money well spent. Trust me on this one! - Just say the forum sent you!

Lastly, unless you are good with the spanners yourself, always buy the best one you can afford. It is a false economy to buy a cheap one and then think I have a few $ to fix it. There will be more things to fix up than $. Get the best you can afford.

Speak to the sellers and the ones who love thier cars will come across in the conversation. Key quesitons to ask:
1. Always start by saying complimentary things about their car. This will generally get the converstaion flowing if they LOVE their car.
2. How long have you had the car?
3. Who has serviced the car? (this is an important q)
4. What receipt history comes with the car?
5. Any service books/manuals/?
6. Are they a member of the club? My experience is that club members will not lie about their cars.
7. What needs to be done on the car, in their opinion. (This requires disclosure from the owner and recourse if required).
8. Are they ok for  pre-purchase inspection from an Alfa mechanic? If they baulk, you walk!
Cheers
Phil

[massiveluvbuddy67]

Sorry. I should also say the red one looks great too and has lower kms!

[Mic]

Thanks Phil,

I'm also asking a man about his 75 for sale in Vic too. He's got it posted at $2950, reckon I can knock him back to about $2500-ish. Can anyone give me the low down on an '88 3.0? It's going cheap, but the owner insists the only problem he has had was a couple of years ago when the thermostat stopped working. He services it himself, owned it for about 6 years. No info as yet on service books or receipts etc. But I have asked for the info on that too.

I'm watching the sprints, but at the moment, I don't have 5k handy to buy one.
The 75 seems to be the sensible way to go (I'll be a P-plater, therefore must be faster than everyone else or it questions my man-skills and ability to attract women!). It's also reasonably priced and as has been mentioned, good for some genuine experience, whether it be good or bad .

I also want new sunnies (since I lost my $200 Oakleys at the beach last week ) and will no doubt end up splashing stupid money on new ones, so I should buy the blasted car before I can go waste hard-earned on them.

Really appreciating the info all, thanks a bunch,
Mic

[Davidm1600]

Mic  all the best mate, a 3.0V6 75 should surely be one to impress the chicks with 

Two other words to replace the sunnies, Raybans for you would look cool  for sure as cruise down the road in the 75 and Ebay.

[pep105]

Hi Mic
Some great advice posted so far, that 88 model 75 is actually a 2.5 not a 3.0.
This versions the first of the 75 series to come to oz.
Looks like it's in great condition however just beware as your on a budget that maintenance could be costly. You'd be better off with a 75 Twinspark as maintenance costs would be lower and it would be cheaper to run overall.

With a Twinspark there's no timing belt or leaking tensioners to worry about as the timing chain
would last far longer, also things such as the clutch (something you need to consider if your a P plater) is less than half the cost, on the TS as it's basically an Alfetta job not the twin plate or later single plate V6 version. Service history is vital as it's a 22 yr old car and a major issue could mean it's all over financially so a specialist check over is important. Don't get me wrong 75 V6s are orsume but in your situation a 75TS might tick all the boxes. I had one as a daily driver for over 4 years and it was reliable and heaps of fun.

Another one to consider would be a GTV 2.0 for similar reasons and the chicks love it mate ! I reckon my
wife got with me because of my GTV although she claims it had nothing to do with it   A sprint would be another one, Frank swears by them and they are so much fun to drive.

Good luck in the search, have a look in the 160 series section there's topics on which 75 to buy

[wankski]

a late model sprint is a great option.

here's why:

simple but absolutely great 1.5L engine. Simple and easy to fix g/b which is pretty reliable...

GREAT handler in the twisties - little maintenance costs and little of the electrical faults that can plague alfas...

the rear transaxles are great cars, like the 75 and gtv6, but gearbox work for them can end up being fairly expensive, and frequent - there are a lot of sepcialist bits to replace like donuts and incorrect servicing of these can be very expensive to remedy.

edit: 5k is a good example of a space cadet alfa owner... upper redbook would be the max I would ever consider spending on a sprint... 4k would be a little high. I think u have a lot of room to negotiate and he wont turn u down. Sprints are good cars, but hardly recognised classics with owners entitled to set their own sales prices...

[Mic]

Thanks for the support all,
I've still been searching, finding these things is hard in Queensland let alone locally.

So far I've enquired abou 3 75's, all 2.5L, not 3.0, as I blindly assumed.
I can't seem to find many twinspark 75's in really good condition.

There 2 early gtv 2.0's for sale on the forum, here's the link if anyone's interested http://www.alfaclubvic.org.au/forum/index.php?topic=5735.0
I'm really keen on red 79'
It's asking 6k (ono if I can get it out of there fast) but from the looks of those plates, it's a WA car 
Car transport is looking about $1900 from Perth to the Depot here, if I could get that sorted quickly I could probably negotiate a little.
Granted, it's about 3 times the price of the original 75 I'm looking at after shipping, however I might be able to ship it to Sydney or Brisbane for less and come pick it up cheaper, I will look into it further.

Biggest problem with buying from WA is that there really is no way of inspecting it before it arrives at my door, which might be a liiiittle too late. 

[philpot]

Gday Mic,

Second Phil Nash's and Frank Musco's comments.
If you've spoken to the owner of the car u like and asked LOTS of Questions, and gauged the veracity of the seller and how up front and...honest he/she is, and you feel ok about the details given to you; there are car inspection firms that will go out and inspect a car for a fee.
Yes, most dont know alfas that well, but they take lots of pics of the good, the bad, and the ugly for you to look at. As well as a multi-point inspection point by point of all major and minor components. They also drive the car if the owner is ok with that. If they're not....well run, dont walk from the deal! All for about the cost of a very expensive pair of sunglasses!

Done it three times for cars I was looking at....Didn't end up buying any as the inspectors pics/report and the owners/sellers 'descriptions' of the car didn't quite correspond with each other.....
IMHO Dont buy without some sort of check by one of these companies or someone looking at the car in person. Photo's on Ebay/Carpoint/etc just don't always show it like it is...

I know it's easy to fall in love with good looking photo's of a gorgeous...car! But, you need to find something you like thats been looked after, in good nick and has a service history and is not going to cost you heaps just after you bought it.  Try to find some cars locally that you can actually look at and drive and crawl under yourself....difficult I know but the best of all options.

Dont let all this put you off though, all these rules  apply to buying any car, not just alfas. Whichever model you choose you'll be in for a fun ride!!

Cheers Phil