156 speaker upgrade

[flipch]

*original HU + amp: will have ability to go louder; better bass; better dynamics to hit harder
*new HU only: won't be as loud; better overall clarity and high-end/treble; low-end bass won't be as good, nor the dynamics

Of course the best results will be from new HU and an amp.

Ah the plot is thinning...  thanks.   

So I will; 1. start with the original HU and get the better speakers, then
2: an amp, then
3: a new HU.  (or grab any good deals for any of them along the way... 

[wankski]

that would be really labour intensive....

its not really feasible to break it up in bits b/c it would require rewiring to fit an amp, then rewiring again b/w the amp and HU...

wiring wise the simplist would be to simply cut out stock speaker connectors and solder in new speakers directly.

then if you do go aftermarket HU, Simply use a harness adaptor or similar to connect into aftermarket HU... all stock wiring is retained.

Adding an amp obviously means a lot more routing and wiring. u no longer are using stock wiring from HU to speakers, but from HU to amp, amp to speakers... that may not sound like a big deal but u obviously need to wire from 2 sets of doors to professionally and discretely line in cable to the amps x 4 to the amp location under the seat or in the boot or whatever... not necessarily hard, but time consuming and does cost more (quality, not audiofool cable, still costs plus any connectors etc)

far be it for me to question shiny on anything car audio but I don't know what he means by adding bass by adding an amp... perhaps this is perceived bass due to playing at a louder volume or alternatively the amp from doof doof brands like sony and pioneer are colored to produce a darker sound. Nonetheless a speaker, as correctly pointed out, is what largely determines the sound production, and as long as its not clipping and is sufficiently powered by a source it will have the exact same frequency response graph as it will when 'neutrally' amped. A amplifier simply multiplies the signal source and does its best to sink return current and other associated additional signal noise, hence the term 'amplifier'. (which is why its not a great idea to amp a poor stock head unit as crap + amp = amplified crap)

case in point. a gain factor of eg 11x will also amp signal noise by 11x. U want that signal as clean as possible (don't even start with automotive power supplies!)

if its bass you want, a closed back door as shown here is the go... but like any closed speaker you do miss out on soundstage generally, but its all a matter of choice and preference...

So again, i'd settle on if you wanna amp or not amp and go with that game plan from the beginning for simplicity and choosing your components...

it's more straight forward to go speakers first, then aftermarket HU later. That way you are not encountering a major install job and keeping costs minimal while getting 90% of the result. If you buy sensitive speakers they will be sufficiently powered to their potential
by the aftermarket HUs we have discussed here. The stock HU would do well enough with them in the interim.

amping is a no brainer when u need to drive hard to power speakers and you wish to install a dedicated sub.... but if you are settled on 4 speakers only, you don't really face any downside by selecting matching speakers for moderate output.... For example that SPL of 93dB is delievered at only 1Wrms of output power. 90dB is pretty loud, and even a 9Wrms stock headunit will be able to drive it to loud levels... having 100wRMS amp availabe will just drive it to ear splitting levels if you are interested in that...

dB = 10log(P2/P1) with 9Wrms u'll add 9dB to that speaker. 100Wrms with a heafty amp u will add 20dB. Yes dB is a logarithmic scale, and as such takes a whole heap more power to add dB to the volume. If you have sensitive speakers as above, u're set as you'll easily hit 90db+ which for most people is more than enough.

refer to the dB scale below:

[shiny_car]

far be it for me to question shiny on anything car audio but I don't know what he means by adding bass by adding an amp... perhaps this is perceived bass due to playing at a louder volume or alternatively the amp from doof doof brands like sony and pioneer are colored to produce a darker sound.

Ah, in reference to speakers, 6.5" can play comfortably down to about 100Hz (midbass). Only a sub can play decently loud subbass (<100Hz).

An amplifier has enough grunt to make a speaker play midbass decently loud (presuming the speakers are well installed). A headunit really cannot produce midbass to the same level; not enough grunt.

Ditto top-end treble, like >12kHz or so. And amplifier can do it well; a headunit will struggle to play this cleanly, without audible distortion. A headunit is not terrible, but an amplifier is noticably better if you listen carefully.

[flipch]

You guys are on a roll... brilliant stuff.

So still sticking with speakers as per Shiny's original list; To amp or not to amp, that is the question!   

To help decide I need some more info.  Remembering I am not into headbanging bass or volume, what amp would suit these speakers if I was to advance beyond the current or replacement HU?  If I eventually get a small sub, would I need to get a 5 way amp, or go with just a new HU and a mono sub, or should I go for a 5 way amp?   

I have shiny's list of brands; amplifiers: Audison, Hertz, JL Audio, Focal, Boston Acoustics, Sinfoni, Tru Technology   Any specific recommendations for me to watch out for deals on?    Seems the young blokes are constantly selling their amps and subs to upgrade.  Any older models worth keeping an eye out for? 

[wankski]

shiny.... again if speakers are matched to what the headunit can properly power (sensitivity wise since ohms in car audio is mostly fixed at 4ohm) then they should be capable of producing the intended FQ response... I can accept however that most aftermarket speaker manufacturers intend to be fitted to amps so they may well start to clip with stock HU or even aftermarket Headunits.... I bet a lot of them overstate their sensitivity! (no manufacturer would want to advertise that their speakers play quieter to their intended market!) its not like manufacturers have never over stated power specs *cough* alfa JTS.

as for a quality amp being better if you listen carefully, i plead 'no contest'. As stated, a dedicated amp is likely to have a much more sophisticated circuit and a better ability to deal with noise and to overall have better performance than the cramped cheap unit crammed inside the headunit of even a relatively decent head unit.... the prime engineering concern is fitting it inside a limited space and in fact not being all that high performance as they expect many to go with external amps thus making the internal HU amp redundant.

aftermarket HU + quality amp will of course be the best bet.


flipch.... Since you're set on shiny's suggested range i'll defer to shiny's super knowledge of what works well with those systems. But to answer your question with amp channels it again depends on the source. The alpine 9882ri HU for example has 3 rca outputs... that would be 1 for fronts 1 for rears and a dedicated sub out. This is the ideal as you have maximum flexibility.... you can use say one '4ch' amp or 2x 2ch amps for the 4 speakers and hook the other RCA to a mono sub amp. There is no need to use a '5ch' amp like the venerable old alpine V12 5ch amp in this case as u have a dedicated sub out. Those 5ch amps are more useful for head units with limited line out options that often only have 2 outs for front/rear only...

[flipch]

The best price I can get on the Crescendo Opus 3 is $399, Morel Temp 6 around $300.  Lots of recommendations of the Opus 3's.  

Best deal I found are Diamond Audio D662S (and A's) for $220 (US inc freight, factory refurbs).  Only 87.4db though, so I gather will need at least a good HU and probably an amp, but at that price I can then afford one or the other up front.

Been looking at used gear at mobileelectronics. 
an  Earthquake 12" SWS slimline sub in custom box for $150.  
Jaycar Response AA0426 4 channel amplifier 170 almost new.
A.D.S. 346 CS 6.5" components / splits for $250...

[shiny_car]

Remembering I am not into headbanging bass or volume, what amp would suit these speakers if I was to advance beyond the current or replacement HU?  If I eventually get a small sub, would I need to get a 5 way amp, or go with just a new HU and a mono sub, or should I go for a 5 way amp?   

I have shiny's list of brands; amplifiers: Audison, Hertz, JL Audio, Focal, Boston Acoustics, Sinfoni, Tru Technology   Any specific recommendations for me to watch out for deals on? 

As per wankski, a 4-channel amp would suffice. And I expect for your needs, around 50WRMS per channel would be fine.

Those amps I've listed there, are mostly high-end, with some of them costing over a couple-thou each (at least, I'm pretty sure that's the context of that post).

[shiny_car]

shiny.... again if speakers are matched to what the headunit can properly power (sensitivity wise since ohms in car audio is mostly fixed at 4ohm) then they should be capable of producing the intended FQ response

Yes, that seems fair enough. Some factory speakers/headunits are quite capable of reasonable midbass (though it ain't particularly crisp).

[shiny_car]

Best deal I found are Diamond Audio D662S (and A's) for $220 (US inc freight, factory refurbs).

I wouldn't chance it. You don't know what the initial problem may have been, or how it was repaired, and whether they used original parts (or else it could change how they sound). And are there fakes? Possibly.

Been looking at used gear at mobileelectronics. 
an  Earthquake 12" SWS slimline sub in custom box for $150.  
Jaycar Response AA0426 4 channel amplifier 170 almost new.
A.D.S. 346 CS 6.5" components / splits for $250...

I have no experience with Earthquake subs, so can't comment. Though their reputation is decent, with a reputation for gear that's capable of being loud and well built (but not really 'sound quality' gear; but not to say it would not sound good, as it probably does sound as good as other similarly priced subs).

Jaycar/Response amps are good value. The seller is a regular member on those forums. If he has a receipt - for warranty, presuming it's still in-warranty - that would be best.

a/d/s/ is a great brand. That seller is genuine (but there are definitely fake a/d/s/ stuff around, and those look legit). Not popular because there has never been a good distributor for them, to give them a higher profile. Much like CDT and Rainbow speakers, for example.

If you're willing to take a chance on secondhand gear, then that stuff does appear good value.

[flipch]

Working on the a/d/s's and Response amp.

Found a UK dealer (Online Car Audio0 with the Alpine CDE-114BTi silver, BT etc for 167 pounds, and they have the CTSAR001 SWI, FP-09-04 Facia adaptor etc at good prices.  It doesn't need add on aux inputs, BT etc, all included.  Shiny you mentioned an CTALPLINELEAD, is that needed as well? 

[shiny_car]

The CTALPINELEAD connects the CTSAR001 SWI to the socket on the back of the Alpine 114BTi. Because different headunits can have different styles of sockets (Alpine uses a round 3.5mm socket), different leads allow the SWI to be compatible with different brands of headunit.

[flipch]

I have the a/d/s splits and Response AA0426 amp (4x130 24ohms) on the way, and all still well under budget for the speakers alone.  

1. With this amp and speakers, from what has been discussed I gather a new HU is a good idea but not vital for now. I can live without BT, aux input etc for the moment (or could buy a cable for aux input for the Blaupunkt HU).

2. What if If I added a sub at some stage?  I gather I will need another amp, unless I don't wire the original rear speakers?

Thanks again for the advise.  For the next stage I will be looking up info on installation of the amp, wiring etc.

[shiny_car]

Good purchases.

I would leave the rear speakers running off the headunit. This will leave 2 channels unused on the amplifier, which can power a sub in the future.

Running speakerwires from the amp to the speakers is quite a bit of hassle, tapping into the factory wires inside the cabin before they pass through the door jams to the doors. Not worth doing for the rear speakers.

[fewlish]

If you are interested on replacing the head unit - I would recommend the JVC KD-R805 -  from memory I picked this one up from Super Cheap on sale around $275..

Benefits are:
- separate mic (shown) for bluetooth phone connectivity - it is so good people rarely pick that Im in the car whilst on the phone - one consideration is that the fan needs to be OFF when using phone...
- Minimal buttons which suits me as I mainly use the rear USB (I have it mounted on the side of the pass. footwell)
- Also I bought an ISO connector (Strathfield) from the OEM speakers to the unit so installation was a breeze.
- Unit back light can be configured to suit the colour of the existing dials (it is a little washed out in the photo but in reality it looks good I promise 
- All the usual aftermarket fruit - 2 2.5v lineouts / Sep Subwoofer control and equaliser settings

In term of power the output is 50watt x 4 (MOSFET) although Im not sure how that stacks up against OEM HU.

Im sure that there are other brands that weigh in with equivalent feature sets however I liked the simplicity of the layout of this one and the big volume knob and so far, it has been a good performer...

[tony8028]

Wow, you guys are fanatical about your car audio!

i looked at upgrading the speakers in my 147 however Strathfield Car Radio wanted $60 per speaker INSTALLATION FEE on top of the cost of the speaker ! And that was just replacing them with the same sized speakers, no tricky resizing etc.

That made the whole thing unfeasible so I just settled for my standard system which i think is pretty good!