156 speaker upgrade

[flipch]

Hi all!

Looking at upgrading the speakers in my 156 GTA.  It has the standard Blaupunkt BP0379, 4 165mm 40w door speakers and 2 30w tweeters.   I'd heard all GTA's in Aus had the Bose system, but mine clearly doesn't.

My priority is to put $$ into a Q2 and then later shocks.   But I find the standard system lacking bass, and it distorts fairly easily.   I am middle aged and listen to mostly 60's and 70's music, the usual Rolling Stones, Beatles, Rod Steward, Dylan, ELO, Neil Young, but not anything heavy rock.

I've read everything I can find on this on the various Alfa forums, but am not into an expensive setup, just want to improve what I have at minimal outlay.   I'd be happy just to replace the front speakers with something that is enough improvement to make it worth doing.  I don't mind the standard Head unit.  I'm playing CD's and mp3's through my TomTom (using its FM setup).   I plan to get a cable to connect it or an ipod or smartphone directly.

I have some old Pioneer 6x9's that were really good when new (TS698 3 way, 4ohms 20oz strontium magnets, 30w nominal, max 60w) and a small Sony amp XME7 with equalizer, 14w per channel contin ave power, 4ohms, 40-20,000Hz, runs 4 speakers, and is also designed to hook up to a power amp.  I've read that it is best to focus on the front speakers, and that parcel shelf 6x9's don't work the greatest, but these did sound good in a previous vehicle, though they need to be re-foamed (I can get a kit for $50).

I found a set of 4 Alpine Alpine DDC-R17H: 6 1/2" reference I can get for around $170.  I've also seen a number of pairs other Alpine S (SPS-17C2, 171A, 600c etc.), Pioneer TSA1702C, Focal 6k1, and a Boston AcousticG2 sub.   

Any recommendations for what I should do?  Not sure I want the hassle of fitting the Sony equalizer initially, probably prefer just to fit 2 or four new speakers that would work with the standard hu.

Thanks!

Phiil

[wankski]

the most compatible in your list that I know of are ALPINE S splits for the front... normally u have rear speakers in the rear doors so that will limit what u can place there unless u are prepared to cut holes in the parcel to fit 6x9s...

general propositions:
1) The HU is the source. It determines how much power output is possible, as well as the quality of that sound. U can also get integrated iPod or USB support, even bluetooth support that blows the capability of the stock HU away.
2) Sticking with the stock HU.... its not advisable to stick any 'top of the line' splits in there and expect it to be the optimal solution. Speakers have sensitivity you got to worry about. This will determine how well powered they are, and the kind of SPL you can expect. Given the stock HU is likely to be weakly powered u are better off on the most sensitive set of splits you can find for the front pair (and rear)... The higher end offerings usually expect to be hooked up to a dedicated amp capable of at least 4x50Wrms and are as such less sensitive and suitable for the stock HU.
3) factory sound: they differ b/w manufacturers. Its lrgely subjective but i find alpine to be the most balanced of the big 3 when it comes to car audio which may or may not suit your preferences.

[shiny_car]

How much do you wish to spend all-up? And will you require pro installation or DIY?

One issue with the 156 is that the door speakers are mounted onto plastic that is moulded as part of the door trim. So, fitting aftermarket speakers is a challenge. However, if you're prepared to cut away the plastic, you can then mount the speaker directly to the door, using an mdf wood spacer; this is the best approach if you want to choose from a broad range of speakers.

[flipch]

the most compatible in your list that I know of are ALPINE S splits for the front... normally u have rear speakers in the rear doors so that will limit what u can place there unless u are prepared to cut holes in the parcel to fit 6x9s...

general propositions:
1) The HU is the source. It determines how much power output is possible, as well as the quality of that sound. U can also get integrated iPod or USB support, even bluetooth support that blows the capability of the stock HU away.
2) Sticking with the stock HU.... its not advisable to stick any 'top of the line' splits in there and expect it to be the optimal solution. Speakers have sensitivity you got to worry about. This will determine how well powered they are, and the kind of SPL you can expect. Given the stock HU is likely to be weakly powered u are better off on the most sensitive set of splits you can find for the front pair (and rear)... The higher end offerings usually expect to be hooked up to a dedicated amp capable of at least 4x50Wrms and are as such less sensitive and suitable for the stock HU.
3) factory sound: they differ b/w manufacturers. Its lrgely subjective but i find alpine to be the most balanced of the big 3 when it comes to car audio which may or may not suit your preferences.

Not sure what the output is of the standard Blaupunkt BP379.  But I'd like, at least for now, to stick with it as I find most aftermarket HU's spoil the look of the Alfa dash.  I don't mind its quirks and am happy to work with it if it can drive some better speakers in a way that ends up a fair bit better than these standard ones. 

Pioneer TS-A1702C are 91bdb, $180; The Alpine S 171A's are 90db ($299 or maybe $80 on Ebay used) , Infinity Reference 93db, 2ohms $229, Audison AVK6 91db $399, Audison Voce AV6X coaxial $220 91db, Boston S60 92db, (USA $A170)

How much do you wish to spend all-up? And will you require pro installation or DIY?

One issue with the 156 is that the door speakers are mounted onto plastic that is moulded as part of the door trim. So, fitting aftermarket speakers is a challenge. However, if you're prepared to cut away the plastic, you can then mount the speaker directly to the door, using an mdf wood spacer; this is the best approach if you want to choose from a broad range of speakers.

I would like to do most myself, including door deadiening, speaker installaation at this stage.  Budget for the speakers under $350 if possible, and am quite keen to get used stuff, or well or just very good value.  Alex Minassian  is sending me a quote on Polks plus deadening material.

On another tangent,  If that Boston sub is a good price would it be worth getting for later when I am ready to get an amp etc for it and get it boxed and wired, or is there a shallow sub that can fit under the parcel shelf fairly simply that doesn't need an enclosure?

Thanks gents!

[shiny_car]

Not sure what the output is of the standard Blaupunkt BP379.

It will be around 4x40W max, which equates to around 15WRMS per channel at 4ohm. However, a headunit lacks bandwidth (ie: cannot play subbass well, nor the top end treble), dynamics, and clarity. Basically, even a small outboard amp rated at 15WRMS/ch would easily out perform the headunit. So, if/when you can, use an amplifier.

But I'd like, at least for now, to stick with it as I find most aftermarket HU's spoil the look of the Alfa dash.

This is fair enough, and what many people prefer. But the above limitations still apply. The factory headunit has no 'line level preouts'; preouts bypass the internal amplifier IC. Without preout, you have to use the 'speakerwires' as the audio signal for an amplifier; as a result, the sound remains limited in terms of bandwidth, dynamics, and clarity. It will always be a weak link (unless you add an expensive digital processor).

So no point over capitalising on the other gear (speakers, amp, sub), when using a factory headunit (fair enough, $350 speakers would be my limit, so long as you add an amp for them in the future).

Pioneer TS-A1702C are 91bdb, $180; The Alpine S 171A's are 90db ($299 or maybe $80 on Ebay used) , Infinity Reference 93db, 2ohms $229, Audison AVK6 91db $399, Audison Voce AV6X coaxial $220 91db, Boston S60 92db, (USA $A170)

Speakers confer the biggest effect on the overall sound, so it's important to choose according to how they SOUND to YOU, if possible. That is, specs and price tell you nothing about how they sound.

The Pioneers are meant to be good value, and superior to Alpine Type-S (or even Type-R). Infinity, Boston, and Audison have good reputations. Though Boston have not impressed me of late; they sound 'boring'. Audison no long has a distributor in Australia, so the Voce series are not available here. Buying overseas has several cons: there are many fakes, you have no local warranty, and no local retailer/distributor support if you want advice on installation and tuning.

My shortlist would include:
*Crescendo Opus 1 and Opus 3
*Diamond Audio D363.5
*Focal 165A1
*Hertz ESK165
*Morel Tempo 6

Where do you live - in Melbourne?

On another tangent,  If that Boston sub is a good price would it be worth getting for later when I am ready to get an amp etc for it and get it boxed and wired, or is there a shallow sub that can fit under the parcel shelf fairly simply that doesn't need an enclosure?

The Boston G2 is a very good sub. It will work very well in a 'sealed' enclosure around 2cuft/56L in size (Boston typically recommend boxes smaller than optimal IMO; when I model their specs, they always warrant a bigger box). So if you want a sub suiting a small enclosure, to avoid losing boot space, the G2 probably isn't for you.

A parcel shelf sub is not feasible. You will need to heavily reinforce the whole boot/seat area to make it very solid and sealed; and there is no factory position for a parcel shelf sub; cutting the metal is not allowable unless you arrange an engineering certificate to deem it safe.

[flipch]

Thanks Shiny!

I've read through a lot of your posts elsewhere and learned lots!    Thanks for the clarification on the HU.   Making me think some more about keeping it in.  I have a Pioneer in my Ford, but I hate the tiny buttons, can't read what they are, just have to remember... perhaps there is an HU that blends in with the Alfa dash.  May look at an Alpine.

I do have the Sony XME7 amp that might improve things, but not sure where it would fit, and wiring it in is probably beyond me.

I can get the Audisons from Aus (rmaudio) they are the last stock.  But the AV6X ($220) are coaxial, and the splits are pushing my budget at $399.  http://www.rmaudio.com.au/html/av6x.htm The tweeters on the coaxials seem to protrude a lot! 

Will look at the ones you listed.  I am in Hobart, hence my search for used gear on the net. 

Thanks again!
Phil

[flipch]

Found some Diamond Audio D363i for $70 manuf. refurb from the US +$70 frieght), but they are coax.

Can get D363.5 for around $140 + freight.   Looked at the others on the list, and the Crescendo 3 get great reviews as do the Morels etc but all are over $350 from what I can see, which is ok but much  more than the D363 deals and the AV6X.   

What do you think regarding the D363i's or the coax Audison Voce AV6X?

[shiny_car]

Ah yes, Phil Kent (RM Audio) just posted today (on Mobile Electronics Australia) that he is clearing out Audison gear including those speakers.

Marty at Fhrx Studios, SYD, has a big range of products if you're also prepared to buy 'unheard' (like the Audisons, I suppose). Ideally, audition first.

If $350 is not really your budget, then go the models below: Crescendo Opus 1, Morel Maximo, Diamond Audio D161.5 . But IMO, worth spending the extra in the long run, if you like your sound, AND if you can add an amp. But, the entry level models would be more suitable to being run off only the headunit.

I have always enjoyed listening to Diamond Audio speakers, though I've not heard the D3 series (the higher models have fantastic midrange/vocal quality). Audison speakers are relatively new, but presuming they share some technology with Hertz speakers (same parent company), they will be very good. Having 'component'/split speakers, with the separate tweeter, provides better potential for a more lifelike, open/3D soundstage, because you can angle and mount the tweeters accordingly. But whether you'd notice this, or have the experience to position them, I don't know.

What are the specs of the Sony amp? I suppose you'd want a good specialist retailer to install it, but I'm not familiar with who's available in Hobart, sorry (though I don't believe there's much choice either).

[flipch]

Thanks Shiny,  

Lots of good gear at Fhrx including the Morel Temp 6, though completecarsound has them for $293.  I will stick with the level of speakers you first suggested, I am just trying to get that standard at the best price possible, including 2nd hand, demo or US import.

The Sony is 14watts per channel contin. ave power into 4 ohms, (x4), 20-25,000Hz (4ohms, 1w, lots of inputs, 4 speaker outputs, 2 preamp outputs, speaker impedance 4-8ohms, Subsonic and bass drive filters, 140x44x165mm.  Nice old fashion equaliser (7 slide controls).  Around 20 years old by now but was only used for 3 years or so.

The Diamond Audio D363i has an adjustable tweeter by the look of it, so I guess that would help.  Same with the Audison.  Both seem great deals.   I would have been placing the tweeter from the component model in the place of the original tweeter to keep life simple (if they fitted).  

They all seem to get good reviews, including the Crescendos and Morels, so seeing as I have little chance of hearing any of them, I am prepared to go with the good reviews on them and the other two.  I am not into huge volume and chest busting bass, but would like musical bass and good vocals and instrumentation.   I have a better than average home sound system, Yamaha NS555 main speakers, RX-V650 amp and Richter sub , so good but not audiophile level.  Got all of it as factory refurb or demo, so that gives you an idea of what I am trying to do with the car as well.  

I'd be prepared to add to the car system over time, so don't want to end up replacing the main speakers in a few months time by chintzing... I guess if I got coaxials now I could always move them to the back in the future, but I'd rather get it right now.  So are coaxials too much of a compromise? 

So if nothing else anywhere near the same standard as the Audison Voce AV6X s or D363i come along in component at somewhere near the same price, I think I'll go with the D363i's, and then I can justify having the amp fitted, or getting another HU.


Can I get silver Alpines or similar HU's to fit the Alfa dash?  Where can I find Blaupunkts HU's?

[shiny_car]

Speakers at this pricepoint will still have weaknesses, whether it be the treble, midrange, or midbass performance. But, I think it's still the sweetspot for value for money, and a marked improvement over factory speakers, and can potentially sound really good.

I don't think you'd go wrong with the choices discussed. Diamond 363.5, Crescendo Opus 1 or 3, or Morel Maximo or Tempo 6 would all be great choices. If you buy from Fhrx Studios, tell Marty you are a member of Mobile Electronics Australia, and that I referred you (shiny_car or Richard; he knows me well). He typically gives at least 10% off to MEA members, and offers free shipping.

The tweeters in the component sets/splits, are going to be bigger than the factory tweeters. You'll need to do some minor mods to the plastic door trim cups, like cutting away some plastic behind the grills, and securing the tweeters with either a bracket or bonding them into position with silicone/sikaflex. But it will raise the stageheight considerably, and sound more open. Also, a potential issue with coaxials is that the tweeters protrude, and they could foul against the back of the factory grills.

The Sony amp should be ok, and still a step up from any headunit. Worth installing if you can. Though even a basic 4x50WRMS amp these days can be as little as $200, so it's probably better to buy a new one!

If you want good (mid)bass out of the front speakers, you'll need to cover over the service holes in the doors. You can use sound deadener, and lay it right over the top of them; or also add some panels over each hole (eg: 3mm mdf wood painted, or aluminium panels, etc; more rigidity = better results but not essential).

I had a TS 156, and these were the doors I did (separate panels screwed to doors over the service holes; mdf spacer for the speaker and cut out the plastic from the door trim):


More recently, the GT doors, with sound deadener applied across the service holes (but have mdf panels underneath):




Most people don't go to these lengths, but it does make a BIG difference. Imagine having big holes in the sides of your home audio speaker cabinets - you'd lose all bass performance.

Whilst there's heaps of great headunits on the market, the current ranges have virtually none that have a silver/grey fascia and red backlighting! Is this an issue for you? For example, Alpine's CDE-114BTi is a nice model, but has blue buttons. An old model is the Alpine CDE-9882Ri which was very decent (2008-09 model), and is silver with red. Originally retailed at $399, so they may crop up secondhand on ebay for half that.

Not sure about Blaupunkt dealers these days. Very thin on the ground.

[wankski]

It will be around 4x40W max, which equates to around 15WRMS per channel at 4ohm. However, a headunit lacks bandwidth (ie: cannot play subbass well, nor the top end treble), dynamics, and clarity. Basically, even a small outboard amp rated at 15WRMS/ch would easily out perform the headunit. So, if/when you can, use an amplifier.

But I'd like, at least for now, to stick with it as I find most aftermarket HU's spoil the look of the Alfa dash.

This is fair enough, and what many people prefer. But the above limitations still apply. The factory headunit has no 'line level preouts'; preouts bypass the internal amplifier IC. Without preout, you have to use the 'speakerwires' as the audio signal for an amplifier; as a result, the sound remains limited in terms of bandwidth, dynamics, and clarity. It will always be a weak link (unless you add an expensive digital processor).

So no point over capitalising on the other gear (speakers, amp, sub), when using a factory headunit (fair enough, $350 speakers would be my limit, so long as you add an amp for them in the future).

Pioneer TS-A1702C are 91bdb, $180; The Alpine S 171A's are 90db ($299 or maybe $80 on Ebay used) , Infinity Reference 93db, 2ohms $229, Audison AVK6 91db $399, Audison Voce AV6X coaxial $220 91db, Boston S60 92db, (USA $A170)

Speakers confer the biggest effect on the overall sound, so it's important to choose according to how they SOUND to YOU, if possible. That is, specs and price tell you nothing about how they sound.

wow shiny, this is exactly what i would say on the issue. IMHO u nailed it 100%.  wrt to output of stock i'd personally be surprised if it can put out that much, i'd expect b/w 9-12Wrms, but u are also spot on when u say power in itself means little and can be compensated for with sensitive speakers - its the limitations of the stock 'built at the lowest cost' HU that features an inferior DAC and amp circuit compared to dedicated aftermarket units. U are also right in saying that the latter problem can be overcome by line outs, but alas the stock unit lacks them.

so i agree 100% that if the OP wishes to retain the stock HU, i would not go bananas on speakers... Again, yes, it is a matter of preference, but i would opt for those known good $80 ebay alpine splits, keep cost and effort to a minimum...

If you do opt to go full aftermarket, that opens up a whole new can of worms.... and cost.... and I agree, if you are going to the trouble of modifying doors (even minor) and fitting splits, I would also opt for a quality dedicated amp. Its not about doof doof and waking up the neighbours, but about being able to properly power the speakers. You'll usually find the higher end in the range the less sensitive.

Also do not fit 2ohm speakers to the stock HU. that will likely fry it.

Also concur Alpine CBE-114Bti is a great choice and has all the features i mentioned above if you are partial to those inputs. There are no current 100% silver alpine HU at the mo... but it looks ok... i'll see if i can get a pic...

So your options depend on what you decide to go with starting with the HU as your source and answering the question: to amp or not to amp. Budget also clearly plays a part.

IMHO given the car already had tweeter locations for the front passengers I would not revert to co-ax.... splits provide superior positioning in the high range where it is most critical.

if you're going whole hog, obviously shiny's your man!

[wankski]

headunit details - it has a fair bit of silver...

http://www.alpine.com.au/showItem.php?item_id=160


install:
(not a 114, the silver color of the 114 model matches better)

[wankski]

there is also a full silver version of the model shiny is talking about: the 9882RSi rather than the silver/black 9882Ri

maybe worth hunting down.

both models here:
http://www.alpine-electronics.co.uk/products/product-singleview/cd-head-units/cde-9882ri.html

pic of the silver Rsi:

[flipch]

Thanks guys, much appreciated!!

I like the look of the Alpine CDE-9882ri, just a matter of tracking one or a similar silver model down for a decent price.   Gather I'd need an adaptor surround to fit it neatly.   What about SWI? 

If I do go with it, does that change the speaker choices, or stick with the same list?   I gather the sensitivity won't be an issue anymore?  I also gather that the difference with this level of speaker using an HU like this versus a dedicated amp would not be too great....  and that adding an amp to the current HU would still not be as good as a new HU without amp...

[shiny_car]

Ooh, RSi versions looks pretty cool.  

I like the look of the Alpine CDE-9882ri, just a matter of tracking one or a similar silver model down for a decent price.   Gather I'd need an adaptor surround to fit it neatly.   What about SWI?

Easiest option is a Connects2 (UK brand) interface, which are imported by Stinger Australia (Stinger is a big car audio 'wiring' brand, stocked by most retailers, so can order the C2 parts).

You will need the SWI and patch lead:
CTSAR001
CTALPLINELEAD

http://www.stingeraustralia.com.au/html/application_guide.html
http://www.connects2.co.uk/

You can also source the dashkit piece from Stinger. The above photo is a great example of 'as good as it gets' from off-the-shelf products. Reports suggest fitment is not fantastic and still looks 'aftermarket'. Only custom fitment with a custom built dash trim would be better.

If I do go with it, does that change the speaker choices, or stick with the same list?   I gather the sensitivity won't be an issue anymore?  I also gather that the difference with this level of speaker using an HU like this versus a dedicated amp would not be too great....  and that adding an amp to the current HU would still not be as good as a new HU without amp...

There's pros and cons. If using only the headunit (original or new), then I'd stick with the most entry level of speakers, like the Morel Maximo, or DA D1 series, Crescendo Opus 1, or the Audison coax. If adding an amp, you could justify next series up.

*original HU + amp: will have ability to go louder; better bass; better dynamics to hit harder
*new HU only: won't be as loud; better overall clarity and high-end/treble; low-end bass won't be as good, nor the dynamics

Of course the best results will be from new HU and an amp.