Teledials on a 75

f1worldchamp · March 07, 2011, 12:09:50 AM

Hi guys
Does the installing of teledials to the 75 require longer wheel bolts? I currently have the original 14" Benzoni wheels and it seems the holes on the teledials are too deep to easily get the current nuts on and off.
Were the original nuts for these wheels (from the 156 I assume) longer, and are they the same thread?
Cheers

ANG156 · March 08, 2011, 06:48:47 PM

I believe the 156 nuts are longer and you need to use them. I did a similar conversion and remember sourcing the longer wheel nuts from a 156

dehne · March 08, 2011, 10:54:51 PM

there are two lenghts for the 156 wheel bolt so be carefull, they are the same as the sud ones but again you need the long ones

Jekyll and Hyde · March 09, 2011, 09:17:02 PM

I'm confused.... 75's have wheel nuts, with studs in the hub, 156's use wheel bolts, where the hub is threaded for them to screw into. How are you going to use 156 wheel bolts in place of the wheel nuts on a 75?

f1worldchamp · March 09, 2011, 09:49:04 PM

Quote from: Jekyll and Hyde on March 09, 2011, 09:17:02 PM
I'm confused.... 75's have wheel nuts, with studs in the hub, 156's use wheel bolts, where the hub is threaded for them to screw into. How are you going to use 156 wheel bolts in place of the wheel nuts on a 75?

Well, that's kinda what I'm asking, which nuts to use. There are a number of 75's with these wheels on.
Like Evan's, pictured in this thread: http://www.alfaclubvic.org.au/forum/index.php?topic=6620.30

dehne · March 09, 2011, 10:33:59 PM

ok so you have a standard set up using factory 75 hub which will have the stud connected and you use wheel nuts to tighten the wheels. so what you need is spacers, 5 mm thick you can buy these from any auto store you can get ones that are a direct fit but you can also buy the others and just modify them to fit

Sheldon McIntosh · March 10, 2011, 01:16:30 AM

The studs are a pretty common thread, it's no problem to get aftermarket nuts from a local wheel or performance shop. You may also need to open up the centre hole in the wheel by a half mm or so, to ensure it sits properly.

I've also only ever seen 156s with bolts rather than nuts.

Quote from: dehne on March 08, 2011, 10:54:51 PM
there are two lenghts for the 156 wheel bolt so be carefull, they are the same as the sud ones but again you need the long ones

Quote from: dehne on March 09, 2011, 10:33:59 PM
ok so you have a standard set up using factory 75 hub which will have the stud connected and you use wheel nuts to tighten the wheels. so what you need is spacers, 5 mm thick you can buy these from any auto store you can get ones that are a direct fit but you can also buy the others and just modify them to fit

dehne, this is why people swear at you. I know you are trying to help, but you end up doing the opposite. I would explain why these two posts were about ten different kinds of fail, but I know you wouldn't read it, and that you are never wrong. Oh, and since you're giving the advice, what is the situation with home-modified wheel spacers in regards to RWC and insurance companies?

Choderboy, all is forgiven.

aggie57 · March 10, 2011, 08:20:26 AM

In my experience a common mistake made over the years in this area is people not realising that a wheel is centred on the hub by EITHER the centre spigot on the hub OR the taper on the bolts / nuts. You must have one, you must not have both.

If the wheel is located by the spigot (that's the bit protudes from the hub and fits neatly into centre of the wheel) then typically the face of the nut/bolt will be flat. Conversely if the back of the nut/bolt is tapered the face of the hub is typically flush, or in the case of bearing caps protuding etc the centre does not interfere with the wheel in any way.

That means that:

- if you put a spacer on a wheel centred on the hub you need to provide the same location for the wheel after the spacer is fitted.
- if you put different nuts / bolts on you need to match both the face (tapered or flat) and if tapered you need to match the taper angle.

Bottom line, just because a nut or bolt threads on does not mean it is right. It may be, but check. Otherwise one day, sometime, somewhere totally inconvenient the wheel may come off, the wheel may break, or as is relatively common on 116's the studs may break. All happened over the years and all avoidable.

shiny_car · March 10, 2011, 09:15:45 AM

Quote from: aggie57 on March 10, 2011, 08:20:26 AMYou must have one, you must not have both.

Not both? Why not?

I realise this is the 160 series subforum (which I am interested in), but on my 155, GT, and 159, for example, all are hubcentric and have tapered bolts. That equates to 'both' does it not?

philpot · March 10, 2011, 02:43:30 PM

Quote from: aggie57 on March 10, 2011, 08:20:26 AM
In my experience a common mistake made over the years in this area is people not realising that a wheel is centred on the hub by EITHER the centre spigot on the hub OR the taper on the bolts / nuts. You must have one, you must not have both.

If the wheel is located by the spigot (that's the bit protudes from the hub and fits neatly into centre of the wheel) then typically the face of the nut/bolt will be flat. Conversely if the back of the nut/bolt is tapered the face of the hub is typically flush, or in the case of bearing caps protuding etc the centre does not interfere with the wheel in any way.

Um...Sud/33/16v have centre bore spigot, <58.1mm to be precise, PLUS tapered seat ( 60 degrees to be precise, again)

Wheel locates onto locating ring around bearing cap, snugly, then tapered seat bolts tighten wheel to hub...they're designed to have both ! Wouldn't change anything, certainly wouldn't put on a rim that didn't fit the centre bore measurement exactly, ie be larger than 58.1mm(thats why spigot rings for aftermarket alloys exist) If the rim doesn't, then ALL load is on wheel bolts, to both hold/align wheel to hub AND locate wheel on hub re rotation and load forces...'BOTH' are complimentary and, share the...load/loads !

Phil

PS: Agree with Sheldon. What you need 'F1worldchamp' is a tapered seat nut of same pitch and same thread, but WITH a longer head, so that you can get to it with your fingers; Yes?

f1worldchamp · March 10, 2011, 04:09:37 PM

Quote from: philpot on March 10, 2011, 02:43:30 PM
What you need 'F1worldchamp' is a tapered seat nut of same pitch and same thread, but WITH a longer head, so that you can get to it with your fingers; Yes?

Got it in one.

dehne · March 10, 2011, 09:33:29 PM

Quote from: Sheldon McIntosh on March 10, 2011, 01:16:30 AM

dehne, this is why people swear at you. I know you are trying to help, but you end up doing the opposite. I would explain why these two posts were about ten different kinds of fail, but I know you wouldn't read it, and that you are never wrong. Oh, and since you're giving the advice, what is the situation with home-modified wheel spacers in regards to RWC and insurance companies?

sheldon i read everything, and thats correct never wrong

have had my cars go through roadys and they have not picked them. from what i was told at a tyre place that the laws are they are not allowed to fit them but if you do them urself its then fine, and they have not affected any thing the centre fit snug on the hub and the wheels sit on perfectly, there are ones out there which are totally different but you need to choose the correct ones if your going to modify them, thats if you ewant them there and then but you can order the correct ones and they will take a couple of days to get there.
not sure what you mean with the comment about the 156 sized bolts, may be i should of said there are 2 sizes of bolts for the 156 short and long, depending on what year model. the bolts for the suds are also the same
i hope that is better

aggie57 · March 10, 2011, 09:38:26 PM

Happy to be corrected. It was my understanding that either the studs locate the wheel or the spigot, and that both results in stress on one or more components.

What happens when a hub doesn't have a spigot? All the loads must then be carried by the studs? Just asking.....

philpot · March 10, 2011, 11:44:57 PM

Dont ya just love how a simple question on a forum gets totally off track and misses the original question ?

No, seriously though...Ok, not having a go aggie57, just that when put TSW alloys on my car originally, the tyre place didn't use spigot rings on the rims to fit my sud. Had issues re balance/vibration until requested they were put on...and presto! Problem solved. Oh, tsw rims use 60 deg taper bolt seats. Std rims all 58.1mm centre bore and tapered seat bolts. Yes, without a spigot to locate rim, all load is then taken by the bolts/studs; alone. Having both actually reduces the stresses by sharing the loads...

Right you are this time Dehne, tho suds/33/33 16v's have three possible wheel bolt sizes actually i've discovered (so far!) Sud/33 QV tele-dials use 32mm thread length; 3316v rims use 26mm; yet the TSW's when on the sud used 18mm so as not to foul behind front hub! ! These are all 'factory' alfa bolts by the way...The TSW's on the 16V are using 26's...

As for spacers, commercially made/homemade/home-fitted/home-made-fitted, for the sake of poor old (by now anyway...) f1worldchamp kinda completely off the track (

) re his original problem. Which is being able to get into the holes of a 156 teledial (gorgeous rim, reminds me of 1977 Porsche 928...) and finger tight the nuts before tightening them with a brace. And also the visual element as well of not having these lost little nuts way down the deeply recessed bolt holes...Check out speedywheels.com.au, they list a lot of shiny nuts; that might be a start. And go down to your nearest wheel place. Even your local, friendly alfa wrecker and have a chat and see the huge range of nuts there!... Maybe someone who actually has a 75 with 156 wheels would care to chip in at this point...(preferably with legal/roadworthy/insurance compliant advice)

P p l e a s e !!

aggie57 · March 11, 2011, 04:37:47 AM

No problem philpot - I don't take these things personally at all. If my understanding is wrong or old-world that's cool.

Doing some further reading (there's lots of noise in web land as usual but as an e.g. http://forum.miata.net/vb/archive/index.php/t-40617.html and http://www.idsfa.net/miata/) it seems that a hub spigot and/or tapered nuts/bolts simply locate the wheel as it is mounted. The load once the wheel is mounted would appear to be taken across the face of the wheel / hub joint through friction generated by the torque of the nuts/bolts being correctly tightened.

Hence why spigot rings can be made from plastic - and why balance can be an issue if the wheel is balanced around the centre hole (as is the norm) but when mounted is centred by the studs/bolts.

Anyway, I'm an IT guy and a weekend car tinkerer. I'm sure there is an automotive engineer type on our board who can confirm / refute this conclusion.