loss of compression on a Diesel 147

[Rocco166]

Hi guys

hoping someone out there will have some ideas about a problem my sister and I encountered on the weekend in her 2006, manual 147 Diesel, we were on our way down south - had been on the highway for 2.5hrs at 110 kph (or thereabouts) without a glitch - then suddenly the car started to slow down, we managed to maintain momentum long enough to get to a lay-by and called the RAC.  Within an hour the rural RAC patrol had been and observed that the engine had no compression (no pressure at the tailpipe and 2 minutes of cranking to get it to fire up) - pressing the accelerator got the revs to 1800 rpm but no further and there was blue smoke from the exhaust   

The car was loaded onto a RAC truck and taken back to Perth where it's now sitting back in the garage...

An office poll has raised a number of potential causes - all of which are expensive    has anyone had a similar experience??  There are no warning lights illuminated on the dash the engine is not making any more / less noise than a diesel usually does - it just won't rev or accelerate...

[ANG156]

Sounds like a similar problem my cousin had in italy in his fiat bravo. The car behaved the same way you described and the eventual cause was a slipped tooth on the timing belt.

Not sure if the diesel motor is a timing belt motor but your description sounds the same.

[colcol]

If there was a loud bang, then the valves have collided with the pistons, but no bang means its jumped a tooth on the cam belt, while you are getting this checked out, they will have to pull out all the bits in the way of the cam belt to check if its timed ok, unless you have had the timing belt changed lately, take the opportunity to change the belt and tensioners, unless of course its an injector pump, as ever please let us know how you get on, Colin.

[wankski]

i doubt this is timing issue...

has the egr ever been cleaned on this car, could be blocked. also check turbo and all pipes for splitting.

[Steve S]

So they haven't actually done a compression test? I wouldn't be too worried about that then. It could be a simple management fault, split pipe, anything.

[Rocco166]

Hi all,

the car is on it's way to AR for a check up - it had only had a major service about 6 weeks ago and all the tensioners and belts were changed - it's gone back to where the work was done so hopefully they will have a diagnosis this morning - my sister is anxious about the outcome, so fingers crossed it's not a huge meltdown - the car was fine right up until it stopped accelerating and lost power - no banging/knocking, no clouds of smoke/steam, no warning lights - nothing....just a sudden loss of power and a failure to re-start....

thanks for your input though guys - I will pass it on to my sis and try to placate her bit....

[Rocco166]

Hi All,

Finally - an answer - the problem my sister encountered with her 147 was entirely down to a dirty throttle body.....after half a page of invoice with : remove / inspect / refit for various pipes, manifolds and turbo bits..the final line: remove throttle body & EGR pipes, Throttle Body dirty, clean and refit - reset system - roadtest - OK

which is great in one regard as it was only $400 to remedy - the downside is that only 1600 k's ago the car had a major service and you guessed it in the charges for that it states that the throttle body and EGR were removed, cleaned and refitted??  The car is only run on BP Ultimate Diesel so I suspect that maybe the cleaning was overlooked in the major service 

anyway the car is running properly again which is the main objective - my sister will be taking up the throttle bosy cleaning with the AR specialist that did the job...

[wankski]

u need to keep the egr clean... if you can't be stuffed, get a new one..

seriously, its not good enuff to hit it w/ carb cleaner, u need to take it apart and properly clean it... if you did so as part of regular maintenance u could have saved the issue and the $400. this is a known issue on the turbo diesels...

background reading before purchase helps avoid these nasty surprises...

but good job its all back in order...

[Joey]

u need to keep the egr clean... if you can't be stuffed, get a new one..

seriously, its not good enuff to hit it w/ carb cleaner, u need to take it apart and properly clean it... if you did so as part of regular maintenance u could have saved the issue and the $400. this is a known issue on the turbo diesels...

background reading before purchase helps avoid these nasty surprises...

but good job its all back in order...

You need to clean it out properly more often than every 1600k's? I think most owners would assume that the dealer service cleaning out the throttle body every 10000'ks would be often enough...

[wankski]

hmmm, there may be a mis-understanding about what the egr does...

and why the tb needed cleaning...

the egr stands for exhaust gas reticulation, it routes the exhaust gas, which in diesels is quite heavy and in most quite laden w/ carbon and oil.... it routes this to the intake thru the tb.... so when the egr is stuck open it is dumping crap direct on the tb....

the egr sticking open is the problem, not the tb... instead of nice cool air thru the intake u are getting hot oil heavy exhaust gas...this is b/c in diesels the exhaust displaces some of the air content, not fuel.

so, we get to answering your question - does it need it every 1600km?.... usually no... i would surmise that a) it was not done, or properly done, or b) more likely some carb cleaner was sprayed in it as a quick maint measure, and the unit was not properly cleared of all carbon and other crap... their short cut cleaning make have dislodged some crap and stuck the valve later on... who knows?

after a certain number of kms and usage its gunna be pretty full of deposits... spraying something at it ain't gunna cut it... u need to remove it and take it apart and make sure the spring-valve can do its thing.... that is clearly not what a mech is gunna do just because as part of scheduled maintenance... on some egrs, u need to drill it out to remove everything!


that's why i said if you can't be bothered get a new one.... every so often, unbolt it from the manifold and properly clear it with carb cleaner and check the valve.... it should be ok and long lived if cleared often, but once it gets clogged u need to either properly clean, not clear - or replace.... circa 120quid or thereabouts... not a big thing to ship.

hope that helps...

[Rocco166]

well, it seems that wanski may have a point with the EGR - the car was fine yesterday but last night the problem re-occurred on the freeway 50K's out of Perth - guess who got the call at 9pm to go and wait for the RAC with the car 

the car was idliing fine last night while we waiting for the tow truck but this morning refused to start - turns over but won't fire - I have spoken to the AR mechanic this morning and they have indicated that they will be more thorough this time and possibly replace the EGR....

thanks again for all the responses....

[wankski]

ok, at this point i would seek to replace with a new one... make sure they clean the tb again...

since their cleaning did not fix, i would ask them to discount the part (it is a dead simple replacement, 5-10 min tops) and their last charge was all labour...

so see if you can get it done properly this time at a fairer price as i expect it to be a rip off over here in Aus...

let us know how u go... others use these forums and may be in the same or similar boat in the future!

cheers.

[Craig_m67]

A faulty EGR valve on this engine should not cause the engine to stop or refuse to start.  That said a faulty EGR (sticking valve) may cause other problems and symptoms. Get them to pull and report to you (so we can check) the ECU error codes associated with the fault.  There is specific one for the EGR (amongst hundred of others).

There is no way a properly cleaned EGR valve will soot up in 1,600ks. Further if they had cleaned it as per alfas scheduled maintenance they would also have tested the solenoid that controls the bypass valve.  I'd suggest they didn't clean it and check it's operation the first time - please do not pay them to clean it again, get them to redo it properly.

I have a 1.9JTD 156 Sportwagon (8valve, yours will be a JTDm or 16valve). In any case, mine haas just clicked over 160,000ks on the original EGR.  I've a (new)spare in the shed as sooting and the solenoid failing is a known problem, I've not needed it yet.  I've got a spare MAF as its also a known to fail, similarly unused (and a map valve... I bought all the chocolate bits for a rainy day).

These JTD engines if serviced and maintained correctly are absolutely bulletproof.

Has anybody checked the crankshaft sensor..? When this fails the car will refuse to start or run, just turns over on the starter until the battery goes flat.  It usually fails when the car is hot, and then works again when the car is cold... until it gets hot again when it fails.  It's a $20./ part located on the engine block, side facing the firewall, just below the starter motor... 6mm socket, ask me how i know. (only ever failure on my car).

Let us know how you get on.
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