2 litre engine will not fire..help needed please.

[mickl]

hello everyone, my 2l berlina will no longer start nor even fire! 
It has been in the shed without being started for a month or so as the brake issues had got me down and I couldn`t face it. i needed to move it last week so turned the key and would have flattened the battery if I had kept cranking. The car engine was running roughly up to Easter but needed a tune up big time...but it did start up reasonably easily.
I have checked fuel and the pump is pushing it to the carbs. I have 95 octane in it.
I have checked and cleaned up the plugs ...lots of carbon on them, and reset the gaps.
I have reset the points and they are close if not exact. Each plug is arcing when the key is turned so spark is getting to the plugs.
I have tried to examine the timing with a strobe but i think it is well out. I tried to undo the dizzy to rotate it slightly but after loosening the 10mm nut it is not possible to rotate the dizzy at all...how do I unstick it??
I have removed each plug and given each of the cyls a squirt of start-ya-bastard before putting the plugs back in along with a short blast into the air filter box........then turned the key but still it will not fire!
What next do you think? I am nearly ready to buy a toyota!

Mickl

[AikenDrum105]

Sounds like fun    Are you getting even a cough or a pop as you crank the engine,  or nothing at all ?

If it was running, albeit roughly, before you laid it up - I wouldn't change the timing and add another unknown (although I do that all the time - I'm hopeless   )  It should at least pop / cough a little even with the timing out.  Even with the leads on the wrong plugs you usually still get the odd pop / cough / stall when cranking for a while.   If you've loosened the clamping 10mm  right off and still can't turn the dizzy - you might need to remove the locking 10mm (that faces straight up)  and wiggle / lift the dizzy + clamp plate out together and free them up on the bench (mark the position so you can put it back the same way)  Careful lining up the slot on the bottom of the dizzy with the shaft in the block - it fits fairly easily one way - but can be forced in180deg out of phase.

after cranking,  if you pull one of the plugs and then crank again - can you smell the fuel from the cylinder ?  although if you tried cranking while spraying a little start-ya-bastard in the intake I'd expect you to get a result of some sort to prove the carbs weren't fueling.   You can check if the carbs have fuel in their bowls by taking off the jet cover, and unscrewing the main jet - it will be wet on the bottom with petrol if the bowls are full.  The needle and seats in don't usually stick shut but the fuel lines can swell inside and block fuel supply - and also degrade and fill the carb filters with rubber gunk.

if no coughs / pops though - points back to spark, even though you've checked that.   After sitting for a month or two then a no start (particularly coming into winter)  I'd have checked through the points etc exactly like you did..

I hope that helps a little anyway - I hope wiser folks might have an AHA moment for you

Cheers,

[Paul Gulliver]

What next do you think? I am nearly ready to buy a toyota!

Don't do that, some may view it as the cowards way out but just go and join RACV road side assist. Best money you can spend with an old Alfa.

[dehne]

have you checked the jets in the carbs they might be a little blocked

[mickl]

Thanks all for your help with this problem.....but it is not yet resolved.
Paul: the car is being brought back to some semblance of its original glory and it is unregistered so I am unable to join up with RACV/NRMA until it is registered.
Dehne: i have removed the carb tops and checked that each jet is free and not binding.
Chowderboy and Aikendrum; When I removed the carb tops I found plenty of fuel in the bowls and there was no gunk. I also removed the 19mm brass nut and removed the small brass filters and they were both clean. I cranked the engine and the fuel pump delivered a good flow of fuel through the delivery line.
I opened the throttle by hand and put a short squirt of start ya bastard into each port and cranked again.....no result. The engine will not even cough or splutter at all and refuses to fire or pop despite the plugs being clean and points set reasonably ok
I don`t think the choke is connected...could this be an issue? It looks like it never has been so that may not be the reason for the engine not starting as it previously did?? I am not so sure on how to set the choke cable up so this job was awaiting the time when I could drive it to a good mechanic to get fixed.
I have not revisited the dizzy/timing yet as I thought to get the carb checks done first.
In cranking the engine it does not sound like I have a solid battery as it can be a bit slow to turn over for a couple of seconds until it gets into a rhythm. The battery is new and fully charged so does this "heavy load/ flat battery sound" mean there is an elec issue somewhere?
Oh Boy.....there is alot to sort out with this berlina, the brakes not functioning (still!) and all of the elec connections to lights and blinkers etc yet to be sorted out. Bringing an Alfa back to life is turning into a bit of a nightmare for me!
Mickl

[AikenDrum105]

+1 on the plugs, it's weird but they do play up under compression when they get older - I had a set in the Super that threw me off track for a while - you could take them out,  wire-brush them,  hit them with a little carburettor cleaner - then burn the residue off with a propane torch,  then put them in the car and they would start perfectly.  Once.   then you would lose 1-2 of them on the next start - at random - when you pulled them they were clean, not fouled or soaked with petrol - but there you go.

after everything you've checked - it almost has to be electrical.   One thing I had happen years ago with a Pug 504 (what a legendary car)  - I took it to the car wash and pressure washed the engine - inevitably soaking the dizzy in the process despite best efforts with plastic backs and rubber bands...    After that it wouldn't start.   We pushed it out into the road and checked everything - spark at the plugs on cranking,  fuel,  etc etc.

Turned out that cranking with a shorted dizzy for a while had toasted the fancy GT40 coil I had in the car - it would spark when the plug was out of the car,  but not under compression.. very frustrating.   after trying everything else - 2 hours later I threw the old ducellier oil coil in and away she went.    Anyway - that's anectodal but maybe helpful...

I have a spare coil /leads set and possibly a points dizzy in the shed (Richmond) -  you are welcome to borrow if that helps you narrow it down without throwing ca$h at it -    let me know.   If you get new plugs - I find NGK BP7S are great.   I did actually run BP7ES for quite a while - but they are an extended electrode plug and dance a little closer to the valves / piston crown than is generally prudent.   

Cheers,

[mickl]

Hello again
new BP7ES plugs installed but no change at all.........not a single firing anywhere.
Could it be the strength of the spark.......it looks more yellow than blue? If so what could be replaced or modified to boost the spark?? Is this a possibility?
I am also borrowing a compression tester from a friend later this week.......if compression is low would this be a likely cause? What compression should be expected from this engine and what would be considered to be too low?
The battery is new, fully charged and is rated fairly high CCA
Thanks in advance
Mickl

[MD]

My TCW.

This might sound like overkill and if this was my car in my garage, I would do this in stages but in your case it will pay to do it anyway if you intend to restore the car.

My money is on the electrics for now. So do this:

1 Fit new cap and rotor.
2 Fit new HT lead from coil to distributor
3 Fit new coil
4 Fit new condenser
5 Fit new points
6 Fit new or substitue a known good ballast resistor. (Prime suspect ATM)

Check for voltage drop at the coil primary during cranking. If it drops below 10.5 volts, install relay to deliver good supply to coil via fuse.

BTW A standard Berlina road engine require BP6ES plugs not BP7ES which are the wrong temperature rating for this engine.

Finally, none of this will work unless the engine is set for correct ignition timing. Job no 1.

Concentrate on the electrics first. The fuel will be easier to deal with if it is a problem at all.

[berlinaman]

Hi Mick,

You may have tried this anyway, but recently my berlina (1750) would not start despite continual cranking. It did not even sound like it wouls start. So I took off the distributor cap and sprayed some stuff called CRC aerostart into it. Popped it back on and the car then started staight away and ran even smoother than before. It had been cold and damp and when I lifted the bonnet I noticed that there was condensation on the cam covers of the engine making me suspect it was a moisture issue.

Give it a go, surely if the car was going before it must be something simple and much easier than the other solutions proposed.

cheers

Tony

[MD]

Mickl,

The NGK advisory chart certainly nominates BP7ES as the correct plug for this engine in 2011.

Just to explain why I nominated 6's..

In the mid seventies when I owned a 2 litre Berlina ,it used to be tuned by one of the best carbie tuners in Brisbane, He used 6's in my engine for correct tuning. He himself had a Berlina as well and he used the same in his own car.

Whether NGK has shifted its heat ranges over the years I cannot say but the advice given was indeed based on personal use. It's why I never even bothered to consult the current chart.

At the end of the day, the heat range is not a key problem now. You can work through those issues if you need to once you get the engine to fire.

[scuzzyGTV]

Sorry to hijack this thread, but this may help clear up the spark plug debate.

MD I believe that the temperature rating between then & now would be to do with running super compared to unleaded fuel (can't really be sure, as I wasn't around in the 70's). But I do recall in Karting when super was the fuel, that you had to remove the spark plug immediately after your race, so that it didn't foul the plug, where as with unleaded, it was not nearly as important to do so.

Maybe one of the chemical engineers on here may be able to confirm?

Just my 2c.

[MD]

Could well be the case. Perhaps other 105 owners at the time may recollect using 6's but this is a distraction from Mickl's problem at hand and so I suppose we should refocus.

I remember owning an early series VW Golf. It had two major problems. It would go like a scalded cat on a hot tin roof but it would not stop 'cause the brakes were useless. The second problem it had was an intermittent ballast resistor issue. The ignition would simply die anywhere, anytime and then it wouldn't start for love or money. I threatened to burn the fukker many times.

Spark in open air is one thing but spark under compression requires a correctly functioning ignition system.Ballast resistors play an important role here especially when its cold and battery cranking voltages are lower. Everything I have suggested previously is simply designed to ensure the engine gets its original timing and spark intensity and if it does, it will definitely at least want to fire and then you can refine the diagnosis from there.

[mickl]

Wow! Thanks for the help from everybody. I must be making headway here. Starting to smile again rather than grimace.
Tony...the CRc trick was not successful and the inside of the dizzy was quite dry.
MD...thanks for your expertise, I am working on getting the timing right but am having trouble getting TDC on cyl 1. The nut to turn the engine by hand is so close to the radiator and shroud that I cannot get a spanner to it. I don`t want to remove the radiator if there is another way. So I removed all spark plugs to remove compression and then tried to turn the crankshaft by turning the fan by hand but it just made the belt slip on the fan`s pulley. I would have thought it must turn easily, but no. So is there a simple way of getting TDC on cyl 1 without removing the radiator?
I will be getting the compression tested tomorrow. Do you crank the engine for about 4 secs until the compression guage settles?
At the moment I look like getting an auto elec over on the weekend as a last resort to check the coil, condenser, ballast resistor and timing etc
More soon.......Mickl

[Darryl]

Seems odd you can't turn by hand on the pulley/belt with no plugs in. I've done sillier things myself (ask my wife, she keeps a list) so I feel safe in asking - it is out of gear isn't it? 

But whatever - It has to be spark surely - can't see how your timing can be so bad you are getting no hint of firing. MDs suggestion to replace more or less everything is fine - but if you want to be selective about it....

You haven't said anything about actually checking the points? if you can turn it over and just check that they do actually have a usable dwell angle before they open (rather than messing about with the specified gap etc it proly isn't that - it will run at idle without much time closed at all if everything else is good).

If points look ok chuck a coil in it (otherwise do the points obviously) and the condenser is cheap and easy to replace and can be a proble so do that regardless. Don't forget these things are all "consumables" you will want new points, coil eventually - or someone will...

PS: Only going for the coil so I can tell MD he was wrong  for once  And you can always check if the ballast is a problem by bypassing it (ie stick a bit of wire across it). Not sure if the ignition cct is set up to bypass when cranking on a Berlina or not, but it won't do any harm running it that way at idle for a while before you go out and buy a new one only to find it *isn't* the problem.

[mickl]

Thanks for the post Darryl........it was in neutral when I tried first up and i couldn,t get it to move. Then I thought maybe I could put it in drive or first gear and turn the tailshaft to get the crankshaft to move, but again turning the tailshaft was relatively easy but I could not discern any movement in the crankshaft pulley. By luck with short cranking, I managed to get the pulley marks in view near the pointer. The pointer is about 10mm from the M mark and between the M and the F mark. The F mark is just out of sight. looking in the dizzy, the points are not yet on the high point of the shaft and hence not yet fully open to the max gap.
looks like I will have to remove the radiator now as I have noticed a small water leak from behind the pulley which carries the fan. Would it also be a good time to get the timing chain replaced or at least inspected/ Who knows when it was last replaced. I do not have a workshop manual for the car and I suspect this might also be a job for the pros....any idea of what it might cost?
Auto electrician arrives tomorrow morning so there may be more to post tomorrow!
Thanks to all, Mickl