Alfa 156 JTS Gear problem ?

[DDALFA]

quite a few days of enjoyable driving on my 2002 alfa 156 after sorting out the Lamda sensors and getting rid of error messages.., I have a Surprise!

The car has given up on 4th gear! just dosent want to ride itself in 4th gear. Its a manual car and as soon as i put it in 4th gear with no resistance .... it immediately snaps back in neutral .....so my car has gears 1,2,3,........5 for forward and 1 reverse gear.....i dont put it in 4th .....everyting else works fine ....drives fine ....


Wondering if anyone had the similar problem..?   please share guys ...i desperately need a shoulder to put my head against and CRY LOUD.

[colcol]

It sounds like it is under selecting 4th gear, how does 3rd gear feel?, it could be over selecting 3rd gear, but stays in anyway but 4th gear is not being pushed in all the and when power is applied it just jumps out, this could be caused by the selector fork moving on the selector rod and being out of true position and not pushing enough into 4th, but pushing too far into 3rd, i don't have any experience on repairing these 932 series gearboxes, but can relate things to alfasud and 33 gearboxes, if the forks are fastened by a clamp bolt then, the fork can move out of position, if they are held by spring or roll pins, then they tend to locate the fork and don't move, you may also have a detent ball issue, they use spings behind balls that sit in a cutout in the selector fork and hold it in gear, if you have a broken spring behind the detent ball then it won't be locating the detent ball in the selector rod, and it won't hold it in gear, also you could have a issue with the synchros, but it is unlikely as it is usually 2nd gear synchro that fails first as you always go up and down into second and when a synchro stars to crunch, then its a matter of time before the sychro can't push into the selector ring, and the synchro won't hold it in gear, Colin. 

[wankski]

not to worry mate... swarf is collecting in your g/b and preventing the selection into 4. there is a side cover to the g/b that needs removal and the swarf removed, replace cover and refill with new oil...

not a big job... this happens in some cases and is obviously higher when the car is on its oem g/b oil for life...

[wankski]

here you go mate:

http://www.alfaworkshop.co.uk/alfa_4th_gear.shtml

[colcol]

Any idea what causes all the swarf?, is it actual swarf, ie metal strips or grit, that is ground down synchro rings, i changed my oil after 80,000, and the oil was so clean i almost put it back in the car, but i had already bought new stuff, it is a bit of a worry if there is bits of metals clogging things up, stopping selection of 4th gear, Colin.

[DDALFA]

I knew i am asking the right people ....thanks ..colcol and wankski...and thanks heaps for sending the link..... observing carefully it feels like the gear lever is not going all the way in 4th as the third does .......dosent feel gear been locked in .....which means as col said   ....i think its pushing too far in 3rd gear. 

went in desperacy yesterday ....to one of the Alfa specialist in east and i was been told that syncro would have been failed ...$ 2600 and as the gearbox will be opened ...i need to change the clutch kit as well $1600+.....last whole night  had thoughts of selling my beloved Alfa........but hope the cheap fix u guys suggested holds true....

regards,

[colcol]

DDALFA, try first the fix wankski recommended, as it is more a simple and proven fix, if it fails you may have to take out the gearbox for a repair, make sure if you get a "changeover" gearbox, thats its from a JTS, as the ratios for a twin spark are different, on the JTS, they made the ratios higher to take advantage of the more torque at lower revs, and only deal with Alfa specialists who have the knowledge and special tools required to rebuild these gearboxes, look for our sponsors of the Alfa club who have been part of the club for up to 40 years, tell us how you get on, Colin.

[wankski]

ahh, don't go to that specialist again. IME Zagame brighton and LD doncaster know their stuff...

how often does a 4th gear, direct drive synchro fail on a modern alfa....?? try never. I'd put money on the swarf issue, open cover, clean and replace oil. done.

call around the DEALERS, and speak to someone about the issue... give the job to the person that has heard of it/done it before... that's who i'd be giving my business to.... YMMV

good luck either way mate!

[DDALFA]

Guys ! went to Bruno! @ Marnello ....showed him the Wankski fix ....he is going to try out next week ....was happy to hear that he will try the options first....rather than concluding.....pretty booked out right now. Will keep u updated on what the problem is ! and the fix !

[colcol]

The Alfa Romeo club had a tech night at Maranello Pur Sang Motors last Friday, i am very interested to find out about this swarf problem, is it something grinding off metal strips in the gearbox or is it just grit from bearings and synchros wearing as normal wear and tear, i will see how your gearbox goes with the end plate off inspection, and if its full of swarf, it might be a better way of servicing the gearbox, instead of just draining the oil, this is what i like about the forum or a Alfa club meeting, you are always learning  something, Colin.

[DDALFA]

And the Truth is Out..and Kudos to the guys at Marnello.

Sorry Wankski....u lost your money on guessing the Swarf problem. but the guys out there were very interested to know about the options to fix the problems like this.  Sharing knowledge does help and now i have cleaner gearbox, thanks.

@Colcol your analysis turned out to be the right one. It was indeed the "Detent ball issue" as you mentioned. The selector fork wasent getting alligned with the spring and ball thingy which is why it was not holding in 4th gear. 

They aligned the mechanisam ....also opened the gear box casing as Wankski suggested and gave it a clean ....refilled with synthetic oil and now the gear change feels much better. that too @ ~$200. including removing the error codes.  due to my inquisitive nature.. to see what's been done ....i was thrown out of the workshop ..  ....could have clicked some photos and posted here.

I know where i am going next time  for servicing me Car.

[colcol]

Personally i would have gone with the Wankski fix, the fork moving on the rod is quite a common problem on many cars, including my 33, proper gearboxes have roll pins, with a hole in the fork and a notch in the rod so it cannot move, on my 33 i dropped the sump pan and realigned the fork and the rod and put some clamp sleeves either side of the fork to stop it moving, don't worry Alfa Romeo 156's are not the only cars to suffer from this calamity, an Italian Supercar thats owned by Audi suffers from the same problem, when they come back from a track day or a thrashed hire car, they won't select gears or they jump out of gear!, Colin.

[wankski]

ahh, good stuff getting it sorted... !

thanks for giving the report - useful for others...


mad props Colin... +1 you win this round......this round...   

distressful to know this can happen to our boxes... they're usually pretty solid... (bar v6 diffs)

[colcol]

Hey Wankski, we are all winners, the more we read this stuff, the more knowledge we gain into these fantastic cars, your solution looked much better than my solution, who knows it would have been right on another car, but the swarth problem you mentioned, where does it all come from, is it synchros bearings, etc, its a bit of a worry, p.s. keep up your good work, Colin.