33/Sud gearbox torque capability

[prova]

Hi guys would anyone be able to advise me on the maximum power/torque capability of the sud/33 - gearbox/differential. Could they handle say a 3lt Alfa V6 or 3.8lt Holden V6, etc? Looking into using one in a mid engine application.

Thanks very much, Ren.

[MD]

prova,

I couldn't say what capabilities the 33 box has but if you want to use a configuration of that sort, why not use a 164 in the back complete with engine and box.? All been done before..you must have your reasons I suppose.

[prova]

Mate thanks for your input. This is forward (open) thinking/planning/dreaming for a FIAT 850 Coupe and I would appreciate any kind of input anyones willing to offer. Might be built just for hill climbing and sprints but would ideally like it to be road registered depending on how radical it becomes.

First thought was Italian flat four boxer engine and box in rear of 850 but would have to reverse final drive (earlier previous thread with some great advice/ideas from the guys from this forum)

Second thought mid mount the whole lot (engine forward of box)

Like both these possiblities because I think this is a great engine (its Italian) and keeps the weight really low in the chassis.

But these ideas led me to think about using the box in this mid mount position but maybe a more radical big 'capacity' engine. Italian would be best but many Italian cars from the 60's and 70's used American muscle so the Buick V6 (Commodore) would be easy to source, powerful and simple to maintain. I remember the instant pick up of an old VN I had - now that in an 850 would be ........  The 33 box would help get this engine down low.

Im not really familiar with the 164 engine,box setup? any further thoughts?

[Sheldon McIntosh]

You should probably look at the AH Motorsports page, (google it), they get around 250hp from a 33 engine.

[MD]

Well if you are even thinking of using a Holden power plant in an Italian car I am probably  not particularly interested to pursue this beyond saying that to keep with your original goals of low down weight and substantial power, I would suggest using a Subaru engine and drive train instead. However this is an Alfa forum so I don't think it's appropriate to carry on with that line here although you may care to follow that up on other forums that could help.

If you wanted to keep it all Fiat (my preference), I would do some homework on installing a Fiat 128 engine and drive train to keep the mass of things in good proportion. If more power is your objective, turbo charge the engine . Should go like a shower ..

..contact the Fiat Club for more info.

[prova]

I am an Italian car nut and really dislike commodores, falcons, etc but I do love cars by Iso, Bizzarrini and De Tomasso that all used american muscle - can you see my angle? The Giocattolo used a Oz 308 as well and I dont think too many Alfa enthusiasts would turn their nose up at that - well I hope not! This thing (car) is just for fun!

Alfa V6 would be good - could the sud box handle it and would they mate up okay.

[MD]

Woah Neddy !!

Alfa V6 would be good - could the sud box handle it and would they mate up okay.

You are mixing up the brew here to where it seems a bit silly.

Please have a look at any engine and gearbox/drive train schematics of the 164 to get a full picture. Try to imagine transplanting the ENTIRE engine and drive train assembly as one unit and fit it in the midship position of the Fiat 850 coupe if that is what you want to do.

The same applies to the Subaru package.

Now I am suggesting once again to keep the weight of stuff down and extract the power by forced induction. Here are the cars that could provide this "PACKAGE" for a transplant to the rear. One already has it as you want to do. Take a look at them and make a study of their configurations.
You would go from 850cc to 1300 -1500cc. These small engines would spool up quick and do an excellent job in terms of power to weight and balance. Ultimately, they would remain a true Fiat.

[prova]

Thanks MD

[Sheldon McIntosh]

I agree (mostly) with MD, it would certainly be preferable to keep it, if not Fiat, then at least Italian.  A popular transplant in NZ was to put the Fiat Uno Turbo engine into X1/9s, but those engines are probably pretty hard to find these days, even in NZ.  They're the same block as the X1/9 1500, so an easy swap.

As MD says, if you were going the V6 route, it would be foolish to do it any other way than fitting the entire drivetrain, the only problem there being getting hold of a manual....

Here's a Fiat 500 with a 380hp Alfa V6 to show you the idea...... http://www.caradisiac.com/La-Fiat-500-la-plus-rapide-du-monde-12344.htm

[colcol]

And in the mid 80's a Giacattolo turned up to Phillip Island and a club member who was a good steerer managed to chase it down and pass it in a 1.5 litre Sprint!, the V-8 engined Giacattolo looked very ugly through the corners, anyway fitting Holden engines is a stupid idea and it will never take off, Colin.

[Brad M]

... anyway fitting Holden engines is a stupid idea and it will never take off, Colin.

[Evan Bottcher]

Based on reading Adie Hawkins (AHM) the limits are the input shaft bearing, the driveshafts, and with enough power the actual casing breaks up. They make a billet sump and insert extra dowels, plus I think another front housing to keep them together.

[prova]

Thanks Evan - its seems it would take some work and investment to make it reliable.

[meizhak]

This is the man to talk to;

http://www.tonyrigoliperformance.com.au/fiat-850_coupe.htm

[prova]

Thanks, still got the original 'Fast Fours and Rotary' magazine that his car featured in. He uses the FIAT twin cam in the rear with a VW box and shafts - needed wheelie bars due to the power available and the rear weight bias! I really like the idea of the boxer engine and box mid mounted but then started thinking ...... could I just use the box with another engine...........

Just fishing for possibilities - the idea of the sud box with a 3 litre Alfa V6 sounds so good! Other front wheel drive options such as the 164 as donors just sit up so high but I will look into it and obviously being a complete unit would simplyfy things no end. I have seen on Youtube an 850 coupe with a Lancia Beta engine/box so definitely possible.