V-8 Car of the Future

[Duk]

I think the Group A format was the best approach to out and out production car based circuit racing.
I liked the idea that the engine block, head(s), exhaust manifolds for turbo engines, turbos, inlet manifolds, intercoolers (for turbo'd engines), suspension geometry, suspension uprights and bodywork all had to come from the manufacturer.
The emphasis was on the teams to develop what the manufacturers supplied. If the manufacturers wanted to be involved, then they had to provide a base car that was worth developing.
Back in the day, the GTR was obviously the bees knees. Most people would just look at the obvious, the twin turbo's and the very effective 4 wheel drive system. What most forget is that they also used very decent multi link suspension front and rear. That Nissan developed stronger engine blocks  and slightly bigger turbos for their intended competition cars (the GTR N1 spec engines), that Nissan gave a crap about their cars aerodynamics.
The Cosworth Sierra's RS500, how ever, were built on a pretty low tech chassis. Yeah they had IRS, but it was a semi trailing arm suspension. The front was just McPherson struts. They were also hamstrung with small wheels and tyres.
The most redeeming features were obviously that awesome engine and their aerodynamics.

[colcol]

Hey DUK, couldn't agree more, the group A cars were all based on production cars, and when they bingled the cars, they used production panels to replace them, the COTF, will use expensive hand made parts, and the reason Nissan won everything was they looked at the rules and built a car to suit, they would have won more races, except, the regulators had to keep bringing back to the field to makers that were still using 2 wheel drive and pushrod motors, and Group A was based on weights and tyres and engine capacity, if you had a small engine compared to others, you got good rubber, the larger motored cars were in trouble with lack of rubber, the car that won the 1987 championship was a BMW M3 with a 2.3 litre, with good rubber and Jim Richards, Colin.

[Duk]

Having said what I said, I actually think that there is some excellent relevant information about V8SC's that is applicable to modifying the Alfa TA chassis.
And I think that the SC's are more relevant than the up and coming COTF will be 'cause of the IRS that they'll have.

Things like the corrected (project Blue Print) front suspension geometry, the very real relevance of the rear roll centre height and the rear wheel alignment (camber and toe angle) that gets applied to their live axle arse end.
Add in the commentary mentions (I think it's fantastic that they have real hands on ex-drivers for the majority of the commentary team!) of the importance of well set up dampers that "Blow off" (digressive valve dampers) when dealing with big bumps and I believe that all of these factors have significance that is directly applicable to setting up a fast Alfa TA chassis, for either the road or track.

And if people don't believe me, just check out MD's build threads for his 2 track Alfetta's and see the change of front geometry, front (1 of the direct results of the geometry change, but it also has dramatic effect on the camber curve of the front suspension) and rear roll centre heights and alignment to make them fast. Speed that couldn't be achieved with just spring, dampers and antiroll bar changes.

[colcol]

Ford Performance Racing tested their version of Car Of The Future this week at Winton, i didn't see what engine they were using, but most likely ran the current engine to do back to back testing, seems a bit unusual calling a Falcon, 'Car of the Future',when it only has 2-4 years production left, the test seemed to go ok apart from a smokey transaxle\oil line\oil cooler, Colin.

[MD]

Yes that is very impressive performance indeed. Claims of environmentally clean are only half true because the energy put into the batteries can come from sources that generate emissions of one kind or another unless they are recharged from solar panels or some such.

I can see it now. The new Falcon with a solar panel wing at the back..what, a bridge too far? darn ! 

[colcol]

How about KERS, [Kinetic Energy Recovery System] on V-8 Car of The Future, can you imagine the howls of protest from the knuckle draggers, limit the amount of fuel to use in a race, and whoever comes up with the best engine on power, economy and driveability, wins the race, and the engines have to do 5 races, to stop expensive new engines in every race, engine change means 10 grid penalty, also transaxles must last 5 races as well, or 5 grid penalty, Colin.

[festy]

From what I've heard (which might be complete rubbish) is that the OHC engines will have the same capacity limit and the same rev limit as the pushrod engines, and they'll use the same control EMS too.
The alloy block engines weigh less, so the engine will have to carry ballast to bring it up to minimum weight for parity. That's ballast in/on the engine - not the car. Solid tungsten sump maybe?

With the same intake diameter, same ECU, same fuel, engine capacity and rev limit there shouldn't be too much potential difference between the pushrod and OHC engines.

The current engines use custom heads etc so it's not like they're handicapped by 1950's combustion chamber designs or anything.
The OHC engines may be capable of higher revs than the pushrod models, but the current engines have no trouble getting to the enforced limit so that advantage can't be exploited.

I'm sure there's more to the final parity configuration than that, but it kind of makes sense as a good starting point.

As for KERS - consider how many issues F1 teams still have developing a reliable KERS system (and how many F1 engineers/mechanics have been injured in the process) - what hope would V8SC teams have of getting it right, without killing too many team members in the process? 

[colcol]

The pushrod motor although simpler, with only 1 camshaft has the disadvantage of heavy valve gear, a pushrod and rocker for the camshaft to push the valve open, and big heavy valve springs to close the valve and to push the rocker and pushrod back, a bit more weight and friction compared to a over head cam, thats why hardly anyone except General Motors uses them anymore, i will put money on it that the Nissan will have to be brought back to the field by extra weight or intake restrictors, after the howls of protest by the knuckle draggers of Nissan cheating again, just like they did, [didn't], with the Godzilla, Colin.

[Duk]

The pushrod motor although simpler, with only 1 camshaft has the disadvantage of heavy valve gear, a pushrod and rocker for the camshaft to push the valve open, and big heavy valve springs to close the valve and to push the rocker and pushrod back, a bit more weight and friction compared to a over head cam, thats why hardly anyone except General Motors uses them anymore, i will put money on it that the Nissan will have to be brought back to the field by extra weight or intake restrictors, after the howls of protest by the knuckle draggers of Nissan cheating again, just like they did, [didn't], with the Godzilla, Colin.

I've never understood this notion that pushrod engines are simpler. Per valve, you've got more moving parts that move in different directions  .
Roller lifter and rockers, plus everything being made from Titanium has been a huge boost for performance and reliability for the Dinosaur brigade. Just look at how few cars expire from mechanical failure despite the high specific power output (more than 120hp/litre at less than 7500rpm).

I'm agreeing with Festy, with sufficient handy caps that get equally applied to all teams, I just don't think there will be much in the way of power potential for the 4 valve, quad cam Nissan engine.
Time will tell.

[colcol]

At the Dick Smith 500 at Sandown yesterday, the commentators said that the Australian V-8 Touring cars are the most reliable in the world, at the time they said it, 1 car had retired due to accident damage, 20 years ago there would have been a 10% breakdown rate, good quality engine components and gearboxes, diffs and driveshafts, who said racing doesn't improve the breed, Colin.

[Brad M]

The germans are coming ...

http://news.theage.com.au/breaking-news-sport/mercedesbenz-join-v8-supercars-20120919-2666i.html

[colcol]

Heard the rumors for weeks, didn't beleive any of them, good team for Mercedes, The Stones know their stuff and love racing, they worked for Dick Johnston, in the 90's, Mercedes have a lot to loose, when they win, the knuckle draggers will say that they should because they are 3 times the price of a Falcan, when a Falcan wins they will say a Falcan is a better car than a Merc, the Stones have seen the writing on the wall, as the Falcan limps to its grave, Colin.

[Duk]

Heard the rumors for weeks, didn't beleive any of them, good team for Mercedes, The Stones know their stuff and love racing, they worked for Dick Johnston, in the 90's, Mercedes have a lot to loose, when they win, the knuckle draggers will say that they should because they are 3 times the price of a Falcan, when a Falcan wins they will say a Falcan is a better car than a Merc, the Stones have seen the writing on the wall, as the Falcan limps to its grave, Colin.

I think it's funny that there are so many people that still believe that what is running around the track is a Falcon or Commodore (and obviously Nissan and Mercedes, next season)................

It's a shame that the Falcon (and probably the Commodore) will die off. There is some very good fundamental engineering inside the Falcons. Unfortunately Ford believed the stupid hype that all manufacturers believe, make it bigger 'cause that, apparently, equals better.
On paper, they have enough technological nouse to compete with some of the Mercedes lower/mid models.
Build quality is a different story, though. That's where the price difference really is.
A derestricted F6 Typhoon or a GT would be an awesome 'bahn stormer for the money! I'd be wanting some well spec'd Bilstein's in there, just to throw out the biggest financial compromise in the car's suspension.

[colcol]

The Holden Race Team tested their version of Car Of The Future yesterday at the despised Calder Circuit in Melbourne yesterday, 'baby Tander', [Nick Percat], gave the Commodore its shakedown laps, the car was looking very 'Kelly Racing' with its black livery, all went well apart from when leaving the pits, the transaxle was whining louder than Greg Murphy, will need to be a fast car next year, as it will be taking on 3 AMG's from Stone Brothers and 4 Nissan's from Kelly Brothers, Colin.

[colcol]

Auto Fiction today there is a story on Mazda entering the fun and games of the V-8 Touring cars next year, most likely it will look like a yet to be released in Australia Mazda 6, that is a 6 cylinder front wheel drive mid size sedan, it looks like within the regulations of 'Car Of The Future', it will be able to swap the 6 cylinder east west motor for a north south V-8, never mind that Mazda don't make a V-8, they will be able to use a 'catergory' engine that is like a Chevrolet engine, but not made by General Motors, but various engine component makers, and it goes from front wheel drive to rear wheel drive, to link up with the Albins offroad Volkswagon based transaxle, the brakes, suspension, driveline and 'Nascar' spaceframe will be the same as the other  teams have to run, the outer panels will be made to ressemble the Mazda 6.
The effort will not be supported by the factory Mazda Australia, but will be supported by the Australian Mazda Dealers, as the Mazda 3 was 2011 top selling car in Australia, the dealers hope to continue this success, i said earlier on that Nissan would never re enter Touring cars again, [and i was wrong], then i said Mercedes AMG would race the E Class sedan in Australia when hell freezes over, well you know the story!, this time i am going to keep my ill informed thoughts to myself, Colin.