V-8 Car of the Future

[scott.venables]

I'll bet that if Nissan use anything but a pushrod engine it will be so heavily hamstrung to begin with it won't have a hope of winning.  Over time restrictions might be relaxed so the Nissans are competitive but the V8COTF governors will be very cautious initially.

Scott

[colcol]

And i noticed on one off the V-8 websites, the engine that we are calling a 'crate' motor, is being called a 'catergory' motor, personally, i think if they let Nissan use their own quad cam V-8, then it will be impossible to have an even playing field, it would be like introducing a purpose bred race horse into a camel race, Colin.

[Duk]

I find some of this COTF philosophy a bit strange and typical of motor sport rule changes that are supposedly aimed at reducing running costs, the teams spend big bucks to reduce costs.......... 

Years ago someone important (can't remember if it was team owner, engineer or driver) said on the idiot box, that if they were allowed to use overhead camshaft engines like what Ford use in their road cars, then the engine life would be increased and service costs reduced. This makes perfect sense too, as the requirements for massive valve lift (probably not much change out of 0.750"/19.05mm) would be reduced by using 4 valve per cylinder heads and the reciprocating mass of the valve train would also be reduced, again reducing valve train wear.
Many years ago there was an article in the original Zoom about a V8 Supercar and the owner (a privateer) said that engine life was limited by valve train components more than anything else. Camshaft in particular if I recall correctly.
Power outputs probably would have gone up, too.

Oh well, I'll watch for the racing rather than some perceived brand loyalty.

[colcol]

Then they say V-8 supercars want to reduce costs, so they start by saying in 2013, they will be running sports sedans with a offroad transaxle, so instead of getting their cars from the manufacturer and hotting them up, they are now specially built in shop, with i beleive 200 hours labour costs just for the roll cages and such, if you have ever worked with V-8 type people, they will tell you that overhead cams are effeminate, and the whole aftermarket scene in America is geared towards V-8's, the price of things is so cheap, as the technology is so old that dates back to the 30's, the tooling costs must have been paid for by now, go back to Group A, open slather, and may the best car win, [as it should be], Colin.

[colcol]

A bit of chat in Auto Fiction, that Brad Jones Racing could be considering changing from racing Holdens to Audi's in 2013, Brad Jones raced Audi's almost 20 years ago, in the 2 litre Super Tourers in Australia, with team mates a young Greg Murphy and a baby faced driver called Cameron Mc Conville, can't see Audi wanting to use the 'Catergory' pushrod engine, or letting Audi use one of their Quad cam V-8's, without severe restrictions, but i have been wrong before, Colin.

[colcol]

It was reported in V-8 Auto Fiction that Chrysler have decided against entering their 300C in the 2013 Car of The Future program with Fujitsu-Valvoline Racing saying it was too expensive to justify, with the small amount of cars they sell in Australia, so the C.O.T.F. was supposed to make it easier and cheaper for carmakers to enter...., maybe their partners FIAT could stump up some extra money for poor old Chrysler, after all look how much Fiat have saved on Motor racing, by not having Alfa Romeo racing anywhere, even when Alfa Romeo were broke in the 80's they still managed to run in Touring cars and open wheelers, Colin.

[colcol]

Kelly Motorsport unveiled their new Nissan V-8 motor they intend to have in their Car of the Future next year, it is taken back to 5 litres, its a alloy block with alloy heads, quad cams, 32 valves, this will cause the Holden and Falcan supporters to say that Nissan are cheating [again], because all they have at the moment is a 5 litre pushrod with 2 valves per cylinder, real 1950's technoligy, how V-8 Supercar bosses are going to equalise performance between the makes is anybodies guess, 5,000 r.p.m. rev limit or extra 200 kilos of ballast?, or maybe with all that power the transaxle will fail before the others will, let the fun begin....., Colin.

[Duk]

Kelly Motorsport unveiled their new Nissan V-8 motor they intend to have in their Car of the Future next year, it is taken back to 5 litres, its a alloy block with alloy heads, quad cams, 32 valves, this will cause the Holden and Falcan supporters to say that Nissan are cheating [again], because all they have at the moment is a 5 litre pushrod with 2 valves per cylinder, real 1950's technoligy, how V-8 Supercar bosses are going to equalise performance between the makes is anybodies guess, 5,000 r.p.m. rev limit or extra 200 kilos of ballast?, or maybe with all that power the transaxle will fail before the others will, let the fun begin....., Colin.

Well Ford also have a 5 litre quad cam, 4 valve engine. That Coyote thing they use in supercharged form for the current model GT.

Actually, if you remember the old Nations Cup cars, they were power limited and so are are the WRC cars and also the Japanese JGTC cars in both the 300PS and 500PS classes. It's 'just' a matter of having a set size and designed air intake that can only flow so much air before it starts to choke. That's how the keep 2 litre turbo cars like the WRC and when they used them, JGTC cars to 300PS. Pretty much anything goes with those engines, but the restrictor was only allowed to flow a certain amount and it was the same for everyone.

[Darryl]

That's how the keep 2 litre turbo cars like the WRC and when they used them, JGTC cars to 300PS. Pretty much anything goes with those engines, but the restrictor was only allowed to flow a certain amount and it was the same for everyone.

Everyone except Toyota in 1995

[Duk]

Everyone except Toyota in 1995

I was gunna mention that, but, you know................ 

[colcol]

Was that when Toyota got busted for getting around restrictor plates?, if its the one i was thinking about, it was a really clever way of getting around the restrictor, they were rubbed out for 2 years, interestingly, Triple Eight Vodafone tested their Car of the Future a few weeks ago, and was using the same pushrod engine as they are using this year, have not yet heard what Falcon teams are going to run next year, Colin.

[Duk]

Triple Eight Vodafone tested their Car of the Future a few weeks ago, and was using the same pushrod engine as they are using this year, have not yet heard what Falcon teams are going to run next year, Colin.

If the new format puts a power cap at say 600 (or even 650)hp, then that would allow teams to use their existing engines and keep development costs down.

If they do impose a power limit, engine performance will be more about who can develop the broadest torque curve within the imposed rev limit and who can achieve the best 'Break Specif Fuel Consumption' (power per unit mass of fuel) to help win those economy based races that I hate so much.
My bet would be that no variable valve timing will be allowed on the quad cam engines, 'cause it's kinda hard to employ in an ancient buried cam engine (tho Dodge did create what can only be considered the worlds most elaborate and expensive camshaft that achieved independent VVT of both inlet and exhaust cam timing on a single cam, push rod engine, for the Viper).
Ultimately, they've put so much emphasis on standardizing the underneaths of the cars, to allow other manufacturers to rock up with their technically much better engines and not put a power limit in place, would be a complete contradiction.

My initial interpretation of COTF was that every one would have to use a 5 litre, push rod, 2 valve engine (so either a Ford, GM or maybe Chrysler engine). Pretty sure that would have just been an insult (on top of the fact that they have to use a generic chassis) to other manufacturers that have their own well developed engines. Could you imagine BMW, Porsche, Maserati, Toyota or Nissan rocking up with some push rod 2 valve jalopy?

I think 2013 will be interesting.

I also think that Triple Eight will be the team to beat, again.

[colcol]

My initial understanding was they would use a 'crate' motor worth about $17,000, as opposed to $120,000 now, and that if a manufacturer had a quad cam motor, then they would have to use a 'control' motor or 'catergory' engine, this idea seems to have gone quite, how would it go if they said engine limit 5 litres, but fuel limit of xxxx litres per race, so that the emphasis would be on power and fuel economy, which would trickle down to road cars, as racing improves the breed, Colin.

[Duk]

$120,000 is a pretty expensive engine. I wonder how much the Ford and Chev motorsport block and heads cost, especially as they aren't part of a current production line up.

I actually think the $120,000 number is a bit misleading. Yes, if you have to buy and build a totally complete engine from scratch, it costs $120,000 to build 1 engine. And obviously each team has more than 1 engine per car, but it's not like they completely consume 1 whole engine per round per car.
A lot of the engine should last a full season or more. Unless they have a major mechanical failure, fire or enormous crash, the block (until it's bored too big), heads, inlet manifold (there'd be some dollars in those manifolds!), possibly extractors and most of their custom machined parts like the dry sump and timing chain covers and valley covers, would be used over and over again.
Given the shear reliability of the cars now, it seems like they have an excellent handle on what does need to be replaced and when it needs replacing.

[Duk]

Here we go, starting @ 11.24: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFLIAaBp730&list=UUruVE79hQSQ-85J07KFlR0A&index=8&feature=plcp
"Injun servicing costs up to $15,000."