159 JTD Diesel particulate filter problem

[Nate Dog]

I'll add my 2 cents.
I keep reading suggestions that you all go for long drives on the highway. This is correct in and of itself, but missing one vital piece.
Nasty part follows, and this is what gets people in trouble.
You need to keep it at 3500 rpm (very very high in diesel rev range terms) (roughly 3rd gear at 110kmh/120kmh depending on gearbox) for at least 15 minutes before the dpf cleansing process starts. This then raises the exhaust temps by a few hundred degrees and burns away all the particulate matter. Keep it running at this silly high rev range for another 10 minutes, (try not to have anyone you like behind you, i can only assume it gets very very nasty back there). Please note, this is straight from the Mazda advisory website.
That's how you sort out the Diesel Particulate Filter. Do that every 1000/2000 kms and try not to run at 80kmh at 1300rpm (to show the world how fuel efficiently you can drive) for long periods of time, and you'll never have an issue.

Did you ever had Alfa 159 diesel or youre just guessing?

Are you able to refute and add anything constructive ?
I have also read that the method described can force a regen and or clean the DPF.
You can also force a regen via software control (via CANBUS)

Personally I'd just remove the damn thing, it's not needed for anything other than emissions control.
I have a JTD without DPF, it's a (occasionally smoky) dream

Nope, never had a diesel alfa, my 81 gtv is the first alfa i've had, that was the method posted for Mazda users, same as for Ford Mondeo, same car i know. So, while i can't say if this is what will activate it for an Alfa 159 Diesel (why on earth is every Alfa diesel owner so %$*&ing certain they've the most unique car on earth?!?) i'll put my best guess in that it will work. Modern euro diesels are all built to a similar plan/design. They share common benefits and common  faults.

Yes, there is also a software control method to force the car to do it while at standstill, but, if you want to do that, a) better be well ventilated, b) smashes the battery, c) best have an industrial fan to point at your radiator as the cars going to be running very hot for 20 minutes and can fry if not careful.

All i can say is, right now, you're car is showing a fault, give it a shot and see what comes of it.
I didn't suggest you pour dragon bile into your fuel tank, or use an eye of newt in your oil sump.

Dozens of posts re fanging your car as a fix, this is a refined version of that.

[gattaca]

Many thanks for the comments.

Running it like a bat out of hell on the freeway to clean the filter isn't really a practical option. The warning light tends to come on when you're stuck in traffic, (which happens a lot in Melbourne these days), and it usually goes into limp mode long before I could get to a freeway. If I do happen to be near a freeway, there could be unpleasant consequences to driving at 120kph in third gear for 20 minutes, blowing out massive amounts of diesel particles. There are police and cameras all over the place in Melbourne, and not too many freeways where you can drive at that speed for 20 minutes even if there weren't.

"Personally I'd just remove the damn thing, it's not needed for anything other than emissions control.
I have a JTD without DPF, it's a (occasionally smoky) dream"

That's the solution I am coming around to, but no-one has been able to mention a single person in Melbourne who might be willing and able to perform this DPF-ectomy. A back yarder could remove it I'm sure, but they also have to know what to do with the EGR valve and then I need to find someone who can do the ECU flash. I asked the dealer, if I was able to get the DPF removed (they won't do it for legal reasons) would you be able to reset the ECU for me, and he didn't think they had a program to do that.

Is there anything to be gained from having the DPF filter manually cleaned out? That's the latest suggestion from the dealer. They also said something about the jets, but at the word 'expensive' I switched off and went into limp mode.   

[Craig_m67]

Nope, never had a diesel alfa, my 81 gtv is the first alfa i've had, that was the method posted for Mazda users, same as for Ford Mondeo, same car i know. So, while i can't say if this is what will activate it for an Alfa 159 Diesel (why on earth is every Alfa diesel owner so %$*&ing certain they've the most unique car on earth?!?) i'll put my best guess in that it will work. Modern euro diesels are all built to a similar plan/design. They share common benefits and common  faults.

Yes, there is also a software control method to force the car to do it while at standstill, but, if you want to do that, a) better be well ventilated, b) smashes the battery, c) best have an industrial fan to point at your radiator as the cars going to be running very hot for 20 minutes and can fry if not careful.

All i can say is, right now, you're car is showing a fault, give it a shot and see what comes of it.
I didn't suggest you pour dragon bile into your fuel tank, or use an eye of newt in your oil sump.

Dozens of posts re fanging your car as a fix, this is a refined version of that.

Dude.. I was calling out Nikolas' comment, not yours. I agree with yours. Yours makes sense.
As you were solider


I'm yet, in four years, able to find anybody in Australia who specialises or is willing to fiddle (mod, map, etc) with a FIAT based derv.  Happy to be corrected, answers on a postcard please.

I suspect your fastest option is to contact Gus or Aidee in the UK, order the DPF replacement bits, send them your ECU by express post and have it remapped to remove the DPF and EGR. Probably a two week turnaround. Car will be noncompos vehicular movemento without the ECU (obviously)

They won't telnet into the car.. I've asked


Also... What Evan is about to say!!

[Evan Bottcher]

Hi Gattaca,

Disclaimer - I'm not a mechanic, but I do own a 159 2.4 JTDm.  What puzzles me is you say that the DPF is clogged, but the dash display is saying "Have engine checked".  I've had one occurrence of the DPF not being able to re-gen, and the dash display showed "Particulate filter clogged" as a specific message.

We had lots of problem with the car presenting "Have engine checked" and a limp mode.  In our case it was the inlet manifold swirl valves failing to open correctly (due to sooting in the inlet manifold).

This problem was clearly shown however by connecting the car to the Fiat Examiner computer and reading the error codes.  I'd expect the dealer to be able to correctly diagnose the problem, but I guess I can't help wondering if there is a case of misdiagnosis going on.

Perhaps before you push your car onto the railway lines or set fire to it, you should find a reputable independent specialist with the Fiat examiner computer and ask them for a second opinion.

(our problem with the swirl valves was rectified with this kit btw: http://swirlrepair.com/index_en.html)

[gattaca]

Hmmm, interesting and helpful. Thank you both.

Where can I find an e-mail address for these UK guys?

The possibility of a misdiagnosis has got me worried. Surely the dealer would know if a 2007 1.9 litre JTDm has a specific error message about the DPF being clogged? It's definitely never shown that, only 'Have engine checked.' The dealer said the diagnostic computer was pointing to the DPF... surely they couldn't get that wrong?

Other things that might shed light on the mystery, my wife says that when she was driving behind me that she saw an unusual amount of smoke from the exhaust, and every now and then whilst driving (both with and without the warning light being on) I get a kind of slight shudder from the car, as if I have run over a corrugation on the road. Being Melbourne, maybe it IS a corrugation, but it feels more like an engine shudder. To me it seemed consistent with what I'd expect a clogged filter to feel like, but what would I know, I'm just the victim.

Whilst I would dearly love to leave the car on the railway tracks or set fire to it, and I hear where you're coming from, there are a few reasons why it may not be the best solution. The main downside is that the car isn't insured. There are other reasons, but that reason alone would take some of the satisfaction out of killing it, though not all of it, I grant you. 

If any of you think you can fix it, why not buy it off me cheaply? Great car when it's not broken down, which is rarely.    LOL

[Craig_m67]

Start here >> http://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/alfa-159-brera-and-946-spider/323599-the-definitive-diesel-remap-egr-dpf-delete-thread.html

Then read your way around a bit until your comfy with the issue.

I

[gattaca]

Thanks, Craig.
Breaks my heart reading about one happy Alfa owner after another once their anti pollution gear is removed. It shouldn't be that way.
One more issue arising from this...  Okay, so if I contact one of the guys in the UK and they agree  to flash the ECU once the gear is off, I still need someone at this end to do the actual DPF removal and valve shut-off don't I, also to remove the ECU for posting and put it back in when it returns? The software can't remove the DPF for me. Also, some posts from the UK mention adjustments after it is all done, whereas I'd have to just hope for the best. If the ECU flash left me with a flat spot at 3,000 revs there would be no-one to suggest a tweak of the program, etc.
Does anyone on this forum know of anyone in Melbourne who would be able to help me with the mechanical side of it? I'm just someone who likes a nice car, I'm not a mechanical person who would be confident tinkering with bits and pieces on an Alfa.
It just seems amazing that there is no-one in Melbourne, or it appears, Australia even, who offers this service like the various places in the UK. Someone could link up with one of those UK places that has the ECU program and offer the whole service here. Are we really such a backwater? 13th largest economy in the world and not one person in the country can do this operation that is so popular overseas?

[Nate Dog]

Supply and deman Gattaca,
How many diesel alfas are sold in the uk (where 80% of passenger cars are diesel) compare to Australia, (i don't think we are at even 5%).
Alfas are much more common there, etc.
You're comparing 50,000 cars vs a few hundred.
Hence the lack of locals doing it.

[Evan Bottcher]

I'm led to believe that it is highly illegal in Australia with big penalties for companies and individuals (although it's hard to find references for this - perhaps people just aren't sure).  So no-one will advertise the service.

I did speak to these guys in the UK (http://www.alfatunemotorsport.co.uk/) you can send your ECU to him and he will send it back with EGR and DPF functions disabled, and a performance re-map if you like.  Then like you say you'd have to find a local person to replace your DPF with a piece of straight pipe. 

I really suggest trying a second opinion from an independent specialist, and maybe they'll know more about DPF removal once you get to know them?

[gattaca]

Sounds like it's a combination of supply and demand and the illegality of doing it here in OZ. I'm surprised that it isn't illegal in the UK too, though. Don't they care about air pollution over there?

Thanks again for the help with the UK contact, Evan. The latest development is that the dealer wants to have another crack at tracking down the problem, so I'll try that one last time. I'm happy to leave the car with them as long as it takes, so really, as a specialist Alfa dealer they should be able to pin down the problem.

If that fails I'll do as you suggest and speak to another Alfa specialist I have been told about in Canterbury Rd, and see what they say about it.

The removal and ECU flash poses problems I haven't solved yet, so it will be my last resort. I'll let you all know what happens!

[oz3litre]

The first thing to do is to fit a blanking plate in the EGR which is a very simple job. The EGR routes some of the exhaust gas through the inlet manifold and results in an unbelievable amount of black crud building up on the backs of the valves and inside the manifold. This is baked on by the heat and is impervious to the Subaru inlet cleaner stuff you can buy that works OK on petrol engines. This build up throttles the engine and causes loss of power and smoothness. Blanking the EGR also has the effect of allowing the turbo to come on boost quicker because some of the exhaust is not being sent through the EGR any more. The next step is to find a mechanic who has purchased the special cleaning system from the US that cleans that horrible crud out. This involves an additive in the engine oil, one in the fuel tank and another that is metered through the intake via a unit that takes control of the ecu and runs the engine at a fast idle for a couple of hours. The mechanic needs to run a DPF clean first. We took before and after pics of the intake and when it was finished there was shiny metal inside. The car is noticeably snappier now.

Our car, (a 2.4 JTDM),  does a 70km commute every day so it wasn't as clogged as some cars get but still pretty bad. With the EGR blanked there will be considerably less crap in the system and I am pretty sure the DPF will stay a lot cleaner. At this stage I am not considering removing the DPF, but will monitor the situation over time. This is a problem for most modern diesel engines. The cleaning system my mechanic uses is very safe and effective and can be used once a year or so if necessary. Blanking the EGR brings up a warning on start up that can be ignored and goes away after a few seconds.

The guy in the UK who runs the following Yahoo group is the expert on all this. He is an engineer and has done amazing research using his own car. He used to be on the Alfaowner site but was banned because he upset some of the sponsors who had a vested interest in selling expensive solutions in the UK.

DieselDPF@yahoogroups.com

The other thing with the regen process is that it is triggered by a timer in the ecu, not necessarily by actual clogging. There is a pressure sensor but it doesn't do much. The diesel dpf guy monitored the process in his car using a laptop and graphed the results to prove it. It is all very interesting stuff.

[gattaca]

Thanks for an extremely useful and knowledgeable post.

I don't suppose you could recommend a mechanic in Melbourne who has this special cleaning system? Is it something I could look up on the internet? I'm not sure how to start looking for such a mechanic.

Update on my own situation. I took the car back to the dealer (again) and this time they did a manual cleaning of the DPF. Not sure why on the previous multifarious occasions I came in with the engine warning light on they didn't do this, but better late than never I guess. They also did another forced regen after the manual clean. At least they are now charging me a minimal 1 hour fee for these visits, so I am only bleeding at $143 a pop now.

The good news is that the car got all the way home with no issues, unlike last time when it lasted about 10 minutes, so perhaps it will last a few months now having been manually cleaned out.

The bad news is I have been told that if it recurs again it will mean I have to get a new DPF fitted, at a cost of $3,500 plus labour. I can't afford to risk another $4k repair bill after all I have spent so far on the car, so sadly I will probably have to sell it.

I'll sell it cheaply and hopefully the new owner will have better luck with it than me. There's a good chance of that, as I have already spent a truckload of dollars fixing various other issues like the timing belt/water pump, etc, etc. I'll look into the American cleaning system and EGR blanking first though.

Appreciate all the help from this forum and even if it isn't ultimately used by me, I'm sure someone else will have the same set of problems and benefit from the advice here.

[oz3litre]

Thanks for an extremely useful and knowledgeable post.

I don't suppose you could recommend a mechanic in Melbourne who has this special cleaning system? Is it something I could look up on the internet? I'm not sure how to start looking for such a mechanic.

I can't remember the name of the cleaning system, but I can ask my mechanic next time I see him. I don't know if anyone in Melbourne has it. It might become more common as there are more cars on the road with these systems. If I was you I would be getting another opinion from experienced Alfa mechanics, like Maranello Pursang, on the need to replace the DPF if they try to tell you that. It sounds like whoever you are taking the car to doesn't really know what they are doing. I think DPFs last a long time and the engine would have to be pretty knackered to damage one beyond repair. How many kms has your car done? If you give the car a decent run on a freeway or open road once in a while it should be fine. Chugging around the city on short runs all the time is not the best for any modern diesel. We have only had diesel powered cars in Australia for a short time compared to Europe. Most diesels previously were in commercial vehicles and four wheel drives and didn't have DPFs. Alfa Romeo refused to export their diesels here until the 159 and later 147s came out because they didn't think our fuel was safe to use in them due to its high sulphur content and poor quality. It is important to use the high quality diesel like BP ultimate and not the stuff they use in trucks and tractors.

[skjfhsd]

Did you end up getting a solution?

For anybody reading this, I'd highly suggest cleaning the MAP (manifold air pressure) valve aka boost pressure valve.
If it's dirty (and it's most probably completely covered in soot if you've never cleaned it and have 100000km on the car) the car will smoke on hard acceleration, clog up the DPF far too frequently and be low on power.

It's easy to access and just needs a quick spray with cleaner.  It should have a yellow/orange coloured dangly bit in the middle once cleaned - this'll probably be black when you pull it out and hence the car won't be able to sense the air pressure and figure out the correct fuel ratio.

There's specific MAP sensor cleaner as carby cleaner may damage the sensor but I found it wasn't strong enough to get the carbon off, so had to go with the carby cleaner.

[Potsie]

old topic I know, but following on from last Friday's technical night at Alfa Men it's clear that Matt at Alfa Men has the solution to the problem. Link to the 'Alfa Men' website in the sponsors listing on the main page.