Some Alfetta GTV Questions

[joestram]

Hi All,

I am thinking of purchasing a 77 gtv and have a few questions to ask.

1. Where do I look for signs of rust?
2. What type of engine/gearbox oil does it take?
3. Where can I get a workshop manual for it?
4. What are some common things to look out for?
5. What type of petrol does it take?

I'm sure there are more, I just can't think of them now.

Thanks

Joe

[aggie57]

Hi Joe,

Welcome and good luck with the purchase!  The best advice I could give you as a newbie to these cars is to get any prospective purchase inspected by one of the experienced Alfa service firms that advertise on this site.  The two I would suggest you talk to are Monza Motors (http://www.monzamotors.biz/index2.html) and Maranello Pursang (http://www.maranellopursang.com/).  Both are very experienced in these cars and will give you an honest assessment of a particular car for a very reasonable fee.

[GTVeloce]

Hi Joe

Welcome! Good luck with the purchase and I hope you join the ranks. To answer some of your questions (as best as I can);
1. All over! They are not the best cars when it comes to rust. Hot spots include; bottom of the tailgate, bottom of the A pillar, door sills. Unless it has been repaired, expect to find rust.
2. Plenty of choice and a topic of much discussion. Also dependent on condition of engine and driving conditions. I personally like Penrite. Gearbox oil is supposed to be a 75/80 gear oil. I use Redline Lightweightwhich is awesome and awesomely priced.
3. Try the Pit Stop bookshop website (http://www.pitstop.net.au/). The Haynes manual is very comprehensive.
4. Common issues? Driveshaft doughnuts; electrical gremlins; synchros, especially second; engine compression etc
5. Leaded petrol, unless it has been converted.

Cheers
Julian

[Fast Eddie]

You can safely use  and should use 98 premium with the car "as is". No additives or lead replacement required.

[Beatle]

Hi All,

I am thinking of purchasing a 77 gtv and have a few questions to ask.

1. Where do I look for signs of rust?
2. What type of engine/gearbox oil does it take?
3. Where can I get a workshop manual for it?
4. What are some common things to look out for?
5. What type of petrol does it take?

I'm sure there are more, I just can't think of them now.

Thanks

Joe

1.  Much better to find areas which aren't rusty, and ask why.....  Be VERY careful of rust which has been covered up. A recent respray would make me nervous.   They rust everywhere but the critical spots are the base of the A-pillars and around the front suspension sheetmetal supports.  Take a look here : http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/car-restoration/14822-alfetta-sill-cut.html  It's a sedan but it's almost identical to the coupe in the areas that count.  They also rust around the rear hatch, the hatch hinges in the body, and along the top of the doors where the stainless trim attaches.   Of course the bottoms of doors and the rear, lower areas behind the wheels.

3.  Ebay.  The Haynes manual is quite OK.  Just make sure you get the Euro manual, NOT the one for U.S,-market cars.  U.S. cars had Spica fuel injection where our cars have carbies.

4.  If you aren't familiar with the Alfetta, the gearbox is separated from the engine all the way down the back.  The clutch is co-located with the transmission, and driven by a propshaft which is always spinning at engine RPM.  There are three rubber 'donuts' (giubos) which are critical, relatively expensive, and a right bugger to change.
Geashifts are slow, even in a pristine transmission, and synchros, particularly 2nd gear, are weak.
Engine mounts can suffer heat damage from the exhaust.  Exhaust can get crushed where the two pipes go into the single section under the car.

Factory (Carello) headlamps are expensive, and there are no aftermarket replacements available unless you do some considerable reworking of the mounts.

Earlier cars have glue-in windshields and later ones have a rubber gasket.  The screens are different sizes and not interchangeable.  Damaged screen trims are very dificult to straighten.  

[Sheldon McIntosh]

3.  The Haynes manual is available for download as a PDF in various locations, can be found with a few minutes searching.  So I hear.

[Al Campbell]

Joe,

6. It's fun to drive.

AL.

[joestram]

Thanks for your input everyone.

The car has been recently resprayed in yellow....So Paul Bayly you have confirmed my fears.

There is a little rust in the engine bay but im not sure if it's surface rust? There are no holes through the rusty area. Or how easy it will be to remove.

This is a extremely stupid question, but what if there is rust? Does it effect the cars strength? It's not like the car will crack while I'm driving, will it?

Thanks

Joe

[aggie57]

That really depends on where the rust is and how deep it is.

In these cars in the engine bay there is an area to the top of the inner guards, just behind the shock absorber mount, that is notorious for rusting.  And there is another area under the corner of the windscreen where it's also very common to find rust.  Both are extremely hard and not cheap to treat properly and you need to get some expert opinion on them.  

The other thing is that if rust is showing there and the car is recently painted then you can be prettty sure there will be rust hidden in other places.  Pretty much everywhere on these cars can rust so it's really hard to narrow it down in this forum, but look carefully around all windows, along the sills, along the bottom and top of the doors, around the tailgate (on the tailgate itself and around the hinges in particular), and the rear panel in behind the bumper abd around the tail lights.  Oh - also on the front guards behind the front wheels, on the outside and inside of the panel.

Even with the increased value of these cars recently, the high cost of quality body work means its very easy to make extensive rust repairs uneconomical.

[joestram]

Thanks for your advice Aggie.

So does rust mean the car will crumble?

If the car has rust and it has been painted over, how long will it take to show?

I am very sorry for the questions - I just have no idea of the consequences or rust.

Thanks

Joe

[Sheldon McIntosh]

So does rust mean the car will crumble?

Are you sure you're ready for a car?

Rust is VERY BAD.  Your car is not legally roadworthy if it has any rust (technically it has to be 'structural' I believe, but that essentially means anywhere on the car, but I'm not absolutely sure on surface rust), so not only will it be at risk of being taken off the road if spotted, it will not be insured in event of an accident, and you won't get a roadworthy certificate in the first place, so you won't be able to register it.

If it's been painted over it will probably take a few months to re-appear, maybe up to a year, depending on if it's stored inside or out, and how good the 'patch-up' was.

It would take pretty bad rust before the car would start to fall apart, but yes, if it got bad enough in pillars or sills, or around suspension, then the structural integrity of the car is compromised, especially in an accident.

Rust is non-negotiable I'm afraid.  If buying a first Alfa, avoid a rusty car at all costs, and get a potential purchase inspected beforehand by an Alfa expert, it will save you a lot of money and heartache in the long run.

And Aggie is right on the money; these cars are very desirable, and rising in value, but rust repairs can be very difficult and expensive on them, rendering the worst of them valueless.

Don't give up on the idea of an Alfa, but just ensure you go into it with your eyes open, and armed with all the facts.  Buying and owning an old Alfa takes more knowledge, and work, than buying a Toyota.  But there's a reason we all do it anyway....

[joestram]

Are you sure you're ready for a car?

Hi,

Thanks for advice and information.

I am ready for a car, however, I don't have any experience or knowledge in regards to bodywork.

As mentioned in my earlier post, I am very sorry for the novice question, however, I needed to bridge the gap in my knowledge.

Thanks

Joe

[Beatle]

Joe,

Don't be concerned about the questions. We've all been through the process at some stage (first car, first Alfa) and I think I can speak for everyone when I say we are happy to help out.  Those not happy won't respond  

Surface Rust?  No such thing on a painted Alfa.  Surface rust is the thin film of discolouration which occurs on unpainted steel.  Rust in an Alfa is the real deal

The problem these days is that no-one really wants to tackle rust properly, because the owner won't pay the money required to do the job.  No-one wants to work for peanuts, and no-one is prepared to spend $20K to get a $10K car looking good.

Most mechanical things are relatively simple to fix, and you can get buy with used parts.  No such luck with rust though, either fix it properly at high cost, or walk away.  Simply covering it up with paint is a waste of time, money, and a car.

Having said that, rust in the external panels (door skins etc) is not too bad a problem, but will still cost money to fix.  

Imagine the car stripped of everything.  Glass, doors, boot lid, bonnet, engine, drivetrain.  The 'chassis' you are left with is the critical part.  Any rust in this bit is going to require fixing.  Invariably the 'chassis' is formed from a complex mix of multi-curved and layered sheetmetal sections, which are very difficult to replicate or repair.

Scared yet?  

[Beatle]

Joe, check your PRIVATE MESSAGES

[aggie57]

No problem Joe.  As Paul says we all started somewhere.

If there is any doubt about this '77 GTV you're looking at perhaps you may want to look at something a bit later, around '84.  That would be what we call a 'plastic' or 'rubber' bumper car so it looks a little different to the earlier 'steel' bumpered ones like the '77 would be.  But by the early 80's Alfa had improved their bodywork hugely so those '84 and later cars don't have nearly the same body issues as the early ones.

That's not to say you'd buy one without having it checked properly but your chances of finding one that won't dissappoint you down the track is much less.