75 3.0L Vs Potenziata

[Duk]

Duk is selling a new one: http://www.alfaclubvic.org.au/forum/index.php?topic=8536.0

Ah, no he isn't  . That was the earlier type I bought by mistake and it's sold anyway.
I emailed IAP in America but they never got back to me about the 164 pumps, so I figure it was too hard for them to measure the spigot diameter that locates the pulley .
http://www.okp.de/xtc2/index.php have the http://www.okp.de/xtc2/75/Milano/10-Engine/Cooling/Water-pump-2000-3000cc-V6-164-75-after-89::15661.html water pump, and they say it's also suitable for the 164. Logically the Potenziata and the 164 should use the same pump but different pulleys.

[shiny_car]

Ah, my bad - sorry!

@ Domenic: do you think you have the earlier-model WP? Like this, which is mine (replacement vs old): http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL97/467659/23891866/399541896.jpg

From a google search, the Potenziata should be like this:
http://i39.tinypic.com/1iy2pv.jpg
http://home.wxs.nl/~evdbeek/qvpomp1.jpg

[Duk]

From a google search, the Potenziata should be like this:
http://i39.tinypic.com/1iy2pv.jpg
http://home.wxs.nl/~evdbeek/qvpomp1.jpg

That's how my pulley and pump look.

[AikenDrum105]

Jim K. made this interesting point in the thread mentioned earlier - in case you can't find a Potz Pump

One of the most significant engine differences is the removable (3 screws) water pump pulley, to allow for crank pulley removal to replace the seal. You will not care or notice this until you find a leaky seal! As a matter of fact, in the engine I'm installing in my 75 this week, I used a NOS old style water pump! However, to make it fit and clear the crank toothed ring I had to carefully remove the pump pulley (requires special fixture, no 3-legged pullers!) put it on a lathe and gring off ~2-3mm from the rear lip (hitting the teeth). Ok, I could simply put the grinder to it but I wanted a perfect job! Now you know. Most stores carry the old style pumps, not the Pot. ones!
Another thing, don't take the CD info for absolute truth, they're infested with mistakes/omissions. Double check the info you see with other sources like older microfiche files.
Jim K.

[shiny_car]

The Potenziata 'version' pumps are on ebay. I presume most WPs you buy these days are 'OE-spec', and not original NOS parts. I think most people are happy to use OE-spec parts.

[Duk]

Domenic, I need to get a water pump too. If you're keen, I'll order 2 from http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/330539446263?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649#ht_2896wt_960 and we can split the international freight costs.
If anyone else want to jump on board for new pump, that will get freight costs down even further.

[bteoh]

Put me down for one too
Cheers,
Brian

[Domenic]

Hi Duk,

Thanks for the offer, but i can get a 164 water pump here for less than that.

The problem i face is that i need the actual pulley for a Potenziata. The water pump isn't the problem.

Someone previous to me had a 164 pulley on the water pump and the belt used lined up on a different section of the crank pulley.
I apologise, i should have made it clear to everyone that i was after a pulley. I know it will still work the way it is, but i would rather have it back to original and the belt for the water pump in the right spot on the crank pulley.

Once again I'm sorry if i confused anyone by not being clearer in my original post.

If you're interested in a water pump let me know.

Looks lie I'll have to find someone to make up a pulley for me.

Cheers everyone

[oz3litre]

I have two Potenziatas. The first is an early 1990 in grey, with no sunroof and factory woodgrain dash and console inserts. It is sadly now a parts car due to an engine fire three years ago. My current driver is a black, late 1990, with sunroof. Duk's car must have had the wrong airflow meter fitted, because the ones on both of my cars are  much bigger than the one on the standard 1988 3 litre car that I also have. I have also compared it to a 1989 3 litre car and it is definitely bigger. The fuel pressure regulator is also higher. Jim K says that the Potenziata engine is exactly the same as the SZ engine, minus the SS headers, which means that it is also the same as the 164Q. They definitely have the Q cams. They are not a standard 164 engine. I have a 164 and there is no way they are the same.

I know of five Potenziatas on the road in Adelaide, (including Duk's), plus my two. I too would love to know how many there were altogether.

[bteoh]

Hi Rhys,
Is there a Bosch part number on your air flow meter? i"ll check and see if my potenziata is the same. Btw, how can one tell what cams are on the car after taking off the cam covers? Any casting marks or numbers?
Cheers,
Brian

[oz3litre]

I will have a look tomorrow and let you know. Hopefully I have succeeded in attaching a pic of the cams from Jim K. If not, I will try again later. This is what he says about them:

"These 10.4mm jobs have 230* at .050" intake.
Exhaust valve lift is 9.16mm with 226* at .050". Factory spec duration is 287* IN/277* EX. (33-74-67-30) At this point I'm starting to wonder what the hell an 'S' cam really is!!
Jim K."

[Duk]

Duk's car must have had the wrong airflow meter fitted, because the ones on both of my cars are  much bigger than the one on the standard 1988 3 litre car that I also have. I have also compared it to a 1989 3 litre car and it is definitely bigger.

This is a possibility.
If it was replaced with an earlier/small AFM, then maybe the culprit grabbed the top of the air filter housing from an J Letronic car too, as the hole in the top half of the air filter housing that the AFM bolts too, is/was the same size as the AFM's inlet.

[festy]

Jim K says that the Potenziata engine is exactly the same as the SZ engine, minus the SS headers, which means that it is also the same as the 164Q.

Yep - same engine as the SZ (but different cams?), and same ECU.
The SZ and Potenziata both used the Motronic ML4.1 0.261.200.141 ECU, whereas the 12v 3.0 164 had either the 0.261.200.117 or 0.261.200.130 ECUs.
There are two "chip" versions that I know of for the '141 ECU:
1267355737 - used mainly in the 75
1267356097 - This is a dual personality chip, and was used in both the SZ and a few Potenziatas.
The personality is determined by the wiring harness, i.e. grounding a specific ECU pin selects one or the other map sets.
This second chip has a higher rev limit than the '737 and from memory a slightly more aggressive tune in "75" mode... but that's nothing compared to the SZ mode!
If anyone has a Potenziata with the 737 chip (aka 9AE3) and wants to switch to the 097 chip, I've got a few spare.

[oz3litre]

My September 1990 Potenziata has the 097 chip. Do you know what the differences were in the two maps on those chips?

The SZ and Potenziata have the same cams and the slight power difference, if it is to be believed, is down to the stainless steel headers on the SZ. I think it was one of the Dutch SZ guys who said that the SZs were a bit variable in power output, so there may well be no difference. The SZ headers are very hard to come by these days. I believe that years ago there were a few still available new. I don't know if anyone has tested an engine with and without those headers, so we may never know how much difference they made.

By the way, the number on my AFM is 0280202205

[festy]

My September 1990 Potenziata has the 097 chip. Do you know what the differences were in the two maps on those chips?

Here's an example of two fuel maps - one is the 75, the other is the SZ.
You can see that the SZ map is a good deal richer - and not very smooth which indicates the map probably didn't go through the same long-winded tuning development process as the more production orientated 75 version.