twin spark 16v or JTS??

[Alfapride]

hello all fellow Alfa enthusiasts, its time to update my daily driver, I've been very content with a reliable alfa 33 16v for the past 6 years but looking to upgrade to a 2005ish 147/156. however, after speaking to some mechanics and listening to some owners selling these cars I've heard of notorious stories about camshafts needing to be replaced around 70,000km on the JTS engine plus cat convertor also seems to be problematic and expensive. I noticed a thread recently also mentioning excess oil consumption on the JTS engine.

My question is - are the above issues on the JTS engine as common as some mechanics say? If so it sounds to me they aren't as robust as the twin spark 16v? Would it be more wise to look at an older generation alfa 147/156 with the twin spark 16v motor instead which doesn't seem to have the issues I mentioned?

Appreciate anyone's thoughts!

[ANG156]

Yes, the jts motors are known for camshaft wear. A poor maintained car is more will cause you a lot of grief.

I Personally own a TS 16valve. It currently has 180,000 but its perfect. No oil burn and still lots of power. I've stayed on top of all the servicing and did the cambelt, lower wishbones etc about 1.5 years ago. If your buying a 156/147 for 10ish then budget for 12000. Buying a car without a recent cambelt change, at least every 3 years or 50000kms will mean you need to get it done asap for peace of mind. You also want to give the car a nice service as soon as you get it.

[colcol]

Lets start by saying i have a JTS, so i am slightly bias, JTS vs TS, how long have you got?, the JTS is a more sophistcated injection system on a twin spark motor, it has the fuel injected straight into the head instead of the plenum chamber as in the TS, it is true the camshafts wear out, BUT only if you don't regulary change the oil, with a direct injection motor you get some fuel contamination of the oil due to the looser ring design, if you don't change the oil on time, then the oil will have contamination in it and the camshafts will wear, the JTS uses a bit more oil due to the looser ring design, which lets a bit of oil past, mine uses about 300mlls per month [1500kls], the thing that no one ever seems to talk about in the ongoing debate is that with the JTS you get better airconditioning, curtain airbags, stability control, cruise control, etc, so its not only the JTS you are buying, its a better package, and mine has actually done 827 kls on one tank driving to and from work everyday, Rosanna to Kilsyth, traffic and freeway conditions, the things to watch for is skipped oil changes and correct oil used, 10-60 fully synthetic race oil from your favourite oil company and 50,000-60,000, 3 years cam belt change, not to be missed!, Colin.

[bix]

Hey colcol. I'm not sure you are 100% correct there.
My wife's 147 was a schweet TwinSpark and it had cruise control, uprated AC vents and even a useful cup holder!
Yes the JTS motors generate more power, however I can't get over the fact that they consume oil.
You're average Joe owner/driver never checks oil levels which leaves this type of motor vulnerable.

That's my 2 cents worth.

[colcol]

You are right Mr Bix, brothers 147 TS,  2001 model has cruise, curtains, stability control, dual climate control, the same 156's didn't in the first series, the last first series cars had cruise, the 156 JTS isn't on its own with oil use problems, the direct injection Holden V-6's are suffering engine failures due to owners not checking and changing oil, mechanic told me of one that came in on a tow truck with a hole in the block, had to get one from a wrecker in QLD, they have had so many failures, they are hard to get secondhand, yes you are right, the average Joe dosn't check their oil every week, hopefully these joe's don't drive Alfa's, cause if they did they would spell them ALPHA, Colin.

[wankski]

circumvent the debate and consider a v6.

just listed mine.

[lombardi]

My pet hate- Alpha- proscuto and facacia.
Anyhow getting back on track, i have owned a 156 sportswagon 2000 mod 2ltr twin sprk manual, was an absolute joy to drive BUT air con vent placement was not ideal and such cooling was minimal,the trim was not that solid with plenty of rattles and loose door trimming ie panels, timing belts still had to be managed every 60k or 3 years-contrary to the handbook that stated otherwise.
Now i own a jts gt 2005 mod selespeed,can tell u this is light years ahead in built quality,air con vents are very well placed and climate control is ideal-as good as beema- the jts engine still has that beautiful alfa tone and power is very direct and lively- trimmings are very solid and stable-oil consumption is something i expected it, did a oil change with castrol 10-60 synth, have done about 500 klms and have noticed no oil consumption as yet and this is driving in the city-stop and go.
To be honest i would again own a ts, this is a tough choice as both series have their _ + _- its really up to budget and what u feel confortable with. i love both cars and i am sure whatever your choice u will be thrilled as this is awesome engineering.  good luck with your purchase.

[colcol]

I would be more than happy with a Twin spark motor, as long as it come with the better aircon, cruise, airbags and stability control, plus the fact its a later build so its most likely going to have less kls, BUT the important thing is, as they build cars longer, they get better at it and there are little improvements on the car that you never hear about, such as more durability and less rattles and they just get better at screwing it together, sure its got a Fiat block, at least it not from GM....., Colin.

[Alfapride]

hi everyone, thanks very much for the replies, my budget is circa 14k but I like the advice to factor in some extra $$ for a good service and have belts done etc, from what i've seen online this should buy a very nice 2004+ 147/156..I like the idea of a better optioned car but everyone seems to agree that if one is to own a JTS expect a camshaft replacement and have regular oil checks - having owned a 33 16v for 6 years i'm used to being 'hands on' under the hood, i'm going to test drive the JTS, only driven a TS thus far. Appreciate everyone's advice so far will keep you updated with my progress..

[colcol]

If its a well cared for JTS, then you shouldn't have to worry about a camshaft replacement, drive a few, and any that are down on power may have worn camshafts, to check for worn camshafts, you have to remove cam cover, not a big job, get a pre purchase inspection from an Alfa specialist, the 147 was never sold in Australia with JTS motor, they were more expensive to build than the Twin Spark motor, Colin.

[Davidm1600]

I am with Col, on this.  Again like him, I too am biased, but given I came out of 105s and Alfettas, straight into my JTS Sportwagon, the leap forward in motoring technology/safety was quantum.  Don't get me wrong I still have 2 105s and love them.  

The point for me in buying what I did, was I wanted the best I could afford with full service history, and the lowest kms around.  

When I was buying cars like mine, an '03 model with 89,000km on the clock, 1 owner from new with full Alfa dealer history weren't too abundant on the ground, hence the $20K price.   You could buy the same car now for 1/2 this or even less, mine has now 118,000km on the clock.

I found mine in Sydney and drove it home to Hobart with absolutely no problems.  That was a little over 4 years ago.  It still runs perfectly apart from some planned maintenance ASAP, (now I have all the parts), but absolutely no signs of cam wear and the oil consumption is really minor.  I like looking under the bonnet and always take good care of my cars, so if it uses a little that is no drama.  After all in the dim dark past I used to own a '74 Fiat 130 V6 sedan and that used oil !  

I bought all the bits I need, to do my cam belts, plus new upper control arms, Bilsteins etc from EB Spares in the UK and saved a bundle of $$$.  

Am looking forward to the improvements and peace of mind after this next service.  Normal service costs on my car have been minimal, so I am happy.

[bix]

the average Joe dosn't check their oil every week, hopefully these joe's don't drive Alfa's, cause if they did they would spell them ALPHA, Colin.

You're right Colin. Whether a Twinspark or a JTS, avoid buying off an average Joe. If the oil is replaced every 6 months with the proper spec full synth stuff - and topped up as required, these engines are bulletproof.

[Alfapride]

hi all, thought i'd give you an update on my progress, tried a JTS manual, JTS selespeed and a 147 twin spark - performance wise i think the JTS manual is a clear winner, i was really surprised by its performance. The 147 twinspark was great but the driving position was a little ackward and gear stick in an unusual position. Amazing to see the price differences between manual and selespeed - it's obvious that buyers are willing to pay a 'premium' for manual. I'll continue to hunt for the right example but thanks to all who have helped

[colcol]

The specs for the JTS are 10% more power, 10% more torque at lower revs, 10% better fuel economy, than a Twin Spark, however they are no quicker because they made the gearing taller to take advantage of the extra torque, so i think if you wanted a quicker JTS, you would put a lower geared Twin Spark gearbox, if you ever drive a JTS that seems down on power, then its most likely got a lobe knocked off the cam due to oil changes being skipped, Colin.

[Alfapride]

hi all, thought i'd give you an update on how i am progressing with my search.
decided to stay away from the 156 JTS, despite the improved aesthetics and features, i am hearing and seeing too many examples of issues and don't think its a logical move when the twin spark seems to be a more reliable option. Drove a friends V6 2.5 litre 156, this engine was terrific, very torquey and smooth and felt like a traditional alfa...they don't come up often but geez good combination.