90 starter motor- what am I missing here?

[Mat Francis]

Hi all,

After months of not doing anything, i've finally got stuck back into the 90. Stuck perhaps being the key word.

I cannot, for the life of me, get the starter motor to work. I want to turn the motor over before I go bolting everything else on to it and it becomes hard to get to again.

Here is what I have spent hours confirming;

The earths are good. No resistance from the solenoid body, the starter body or the engine. Have cleaned them and added an extra earth from the block to the chassis just in case, however made no difference.

The battery is fine. Suspected it was the issue, so used a known good one out of the alfetta. No change in symptoms.

Starter motor should be fine. Worked flawlessly when testing it on the bench with a battery. Have swapped it three times now, again, same thing.

The main power wire is providing 12v, no issue suspected there.

The starter relay is working, and when the key is turned there is definitely 12v getting to the solenoid. From here though, nothing happens.

My last resort was tapping the solenoid while turning the key, thinking that the brushes may be worn and have moved while I was installing it. Still didn't work though, and given that it worked perfectly every time whilst out of the car, I wouldn't think that this would be the issue.


Is there anything else that anyone could think to check off the top of their head?   

[dehne]

have you tried putting direct current to the starter whilst in position (use jumper cables)  if that works check your ignition switch, one of those wires goes to the starter motor,( cant remember which one) use a wire to direct current, and if the problem still persists I will sell you some parts to fix it (hehehe)

[Mat Francis]

G'day Dehne,

Yes I forgot to add that, but unfortunately I've tried that too. Same thing, it gives healthy voltage to the solenoid, but the solenoid doesn't budge.

Thank you all the same!

[colcol]

Hey Mat, have you tried wiring up in your car, but not putting it in the motor, just having it sitting there, wired up in your car, have it clamped down, as it will jump a metre if unrestrained, just cable tie it or clamp it to the motor and try it then, Colin.

[Mat Francis]

Didn't think of that one, thanks Colin. I'll give it a go tomorrow and see how it goes. Cheers!

[dehne]

can you roll start the car, thinking that if this way will either eliminate the starter or for some unknown or bigger reason the engine has seized. The reason for think this if you pull the starter out and it get power and kicks over and when you put it in the car it does not either the starter is not producing enough grunt to turn the car over or engine seize/stuck.

[colcol]

See if you can turn the motor over by putting a socket on the crank pulley to make sure the motor hasn't locked solid since you last started it, it it has you could try squirting some WD-40 down the spark plug holes to free things up, Colin.

[scott.venables]

Guys, the solenoid isn't working, so the pinion isn't yet engaging the flywheel.

Mat, you can borrow my spare for trouble shooting if you need.

Scott

[Sheldon McIntosh]

Is this still a 2.5, or did you put in a 3.0?

[aggie57]

Mat - I gave up trying to work with dodgy starters after several episodes like the one your experiencing.  Way back in the past I had an Alfetta GT that was acting much the same as yours is; in the end it was just worn brushes.  I can't recall exactly how it worked but it needed the brushes in good contact even to engage the solenoid.  Mind you, it was a Paris Rhone starter so maybe that explains it!

[Mat Francis]

The motor turns over freely by hand; it did lots of rotations after I put the new cambelt on, I hadn't done one before and was paranoid about making sure it was on right before i went any further. However, as Scott says, even if it was seized, the starter motor isn't engaging the flywheel yet, which is where my problem is at the moment.

Roll starting is still out of the question unfortunately; no FI, no driveshaft etc. Trying to check each step as i do it, so that I didn't come across this problem after I can't easily access the starter.

This is the 3L motor in it now Sheldon.

Oh and thank you for the offer Scott, I've got two working ones here though, it's just they don't work whilst in the car  

[Sheldon McIntosh]

This is the 3L motor in it now Sheldon.

That might be your problem.  Sometimes the starters won't line up, the 3.0 can be a slightly shorter block (by 4 mm, did you check?).  I had to take out the cup washers on my starter mounts so it lined up properly.  Just a thought.

[aggie57]

This is the 3L motor in it now Sheldon.

That might be your problem.  Sometimes the starters won't line up, the 3.0 can be a slightly shorter block (by 4 mm, did you check?).  I had to take out the cup washers on my starter mounts so it lined up properly.  Just a thought.

But he should still hear it try to engage Sheldon, but Mat if its a 3.0 then what parts are you using for:

- flywheel
- starter
- starter pinion

[AikenDrum105]

Hi Mat,

I had a similar issue with the TS in the Super - somehow lucked out and got the 131tooth starter / ring gear combo on my TS donor, rather than the std 130 tooth which is an exact match for the 2L 105 stuff.    

To help muck me about - it turned out the 105 bellhousing 'ear' that the starter mounts to wasn't square - probably hammered around by a loose starter in the past - so when bolted down tight - the nose of the starter was too close to the ring gear - and the end of the pinion was actually trapped against the side of the ring gear.  The relay would click,  but the solenoid wouldn't throw or make a noise.  It wasn't until I loosened off the starter bolts a couple of turns and tried it again I could hear it tap out against the ring gear and the body of the starter would move.    I spaced *just* the outer shoulder bolt out 1mm and this moved the nose away from the ring gear and got the pinion engaging - but too tightly and it would not release (which locks the starter on btw...  have a quick way to disconnect the battery handy  )  another 0.5mm spacer and it would engage and disengage fine - but I could hear the end of the pinion tickling against the ring gear when revving the engine.

The thing that helped sort that out for me was to measure the distance from the flange of the starter to the gap between the un-thrown pinion and the stop on the shaft the pinion hits against when it throws.  Then measure the distance from the bellhousing flange to the ring gear.  You need to space the starter flange out to get that gap centered over the flywheel so the pinion is clear when retracted,  and the pinion stop / nose of the starter is clear on the other side.   On the 105 this meant the std bellhousing to engine spacer,  then the additional starter spacer, and a 0.5mm shim.    I think the 105 ring gear was a little thicker than the 75 one my engine had which made the clearance more sensitive.

You probably know all this already, and I'm way off    but I thought I'd throw it out there in case it helps a little - the number of times I read suggestions from someone that are miles off base - but provide the seed for a later Eureka moment ....   Here's hoping  !

Cheers,

[Mat Francis]

You are correct Sheldon, the 3L block I have is in fact 4mm shorter. I know this for sure as I had to go through the usual expansion of the two rear sump bolts, and had to file down the back of the sump so that the driveshaft bolts clear it. As you mentioned, I also removed the cup washers. I didn't see how this would affect the starter, but it was still something in the back of my mind, so I'm glad to hear that it worked for you.

Alister, I am using the 2.5L flywheel (with spacer from Hugh), with the starter motor from the 2.5 (or it could be from a mates 3L 75, I'm a bit mixed up by all the wheelings and dealings that have gone on). Either way not the 164 starter. I have not changed the pinion in any of these starters; is this is a step i missed?

Scott; everything you mentioned there sounds distinctly possible. I will start with Colins suggestion of wiring it up without bolting it to the block, and then gradually move it closer/tighten it up to see if this is the issue.

Thank you all for your input thus far, I will give it a crack after dinner and report back!